tribaltextiles.info

It is currently Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:31 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:50 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Brooklyn, USA
Hi,
I just joined the forum and have some recent purchases that I would love to know more about. I first noticed this work in Bangkok being turned into handbags of all shapes and sizes and it's taken me a little while to find it in it's original format, mostly aprons and some baby carriers. It looks Hmong/Miao to me, but one internet source suggested similar embroidery work to be Yi. I think the reason information is proving hard to find is that the age falls between being contemporary (the crafts one finds online) and old (traditional costumes that have been documented). They definitely look like they are from the 1980s if one goes on color schemes alone! Some look worn, others are quite bright. Unfortunately most have had their straps cut off, usually where the embroidery ends and trade cloth begins. I first thought the larger aprons to be baby carriers, but I did find some baby carriers and they were much larger and heavier. The vest is the only one I have seen. The motifs include geometric shapes, flowers, birds, butterflies, temple-like buildings, and a surprising amount of cats. They are mostly cross-stitched, with some satin stitching, and manufactured ribbons attached as borders. I imagine these are a bit garish to many forum members' eyes, but I find them quite wild and festive, and would love to know where they come from, and if they are still being made. Thanks!
leslie


Attachments:
File comment: Larger apron
mail_HBCP_2.jpg
mail_HBCP_2.jpg [ 59.92 KiB | Viewed 14008 times ]
File comment: Larger apron
mail_HBCP_6.jpg
mail_HBCP_6.jpg [ 59.67 KiB | Viewed 14008 times ]
File comment: Two smaller aprons with plastic beads
mail_HAP_1and2.jpg
mail_HAP_1and2.jpg [ 58.21 KiB | Viewed 14008 times ]
File comment: Vest front, snapped shut down the center
mail_HV_1_Front.jpg
mail_HV_1_Front.jpg [ 58.68 KiB | Viewed 14008 times ]
File comment: Vest back
mail_HV_1_Back.jpg
mail_HV_1_Back.jpg [ 58.98 KiB | Viewed 14008 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:42 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Hi Leslie!

So pleased you finally were able to get posting and what striking pieces! I too am quite taken with them. So very vivid and eye-catching. I love the flowers and, of course, the cats really ring my bell since I am a dyed in the wool feline worshipper having 3 at home. The images are very graphic, satisfying and balanced. If your colours are true to life, although they are bright, they are 'courageous' rather than garish!

I am sorry to say that, off the top of my head, they do not ring any bells with me but I too would be intrigued to know more. I assume that you could not get any information out of the dealers you sourced them from? That plastic beaded fringe is available in markets in S W China and can be seen on modern festival and minority dance troupe clothing - especially on head coverings. There is the odd spiral detail in the embroidery that gives thought of Hmong/Miao but generally the images don't seem especially based in this culture. Clearly some leafing through reference books is required here to see if some of the images can be found in other groups.

Thanks very much for sharing these images with us. They are very positive and sort of 'smile' and make you feel good. An excellent start to my day!

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:50 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Brooklyn, USA
Thanks for the thoughtful reply Pamela!
The dealers were Hmong, and said that they were Hmong, but another knowledgeable textile dealer said that in the market they will usually just say they are Hmong, even if they sometimes aren't. She wasn't convinced they were. Wondering if they might be Yi living in close proximity to a Hmong/Miao group. I am also wondering whether the two styles of apron are worn together, or if they might be from two different but related groups.
I welcome anything you might find in a book, I'm afraid my library is really small so far!
Thanks again,
-leslie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Yi aprons
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:30 am
Posts: 315
Hi Leslie
Your dealer friend was right to caution attributions nowadays - I certainly remain on a steep learning curve! At first glance I was reminded of embroidered Miao aprons coming out of the Maige area of Guizhou but think this may only be because of the wild colours employed! There is certainly a lot going on!
Regarding your question as to whether these are Yi - I am not sure but post several Yi aprons I have in my collection. These were collected in Luxi County, Yunnan. Aprons 1 and 2 are part of a wonderful old costume set including sashes, tunic and jacket all woven in baste fibre with applique, cross stitch embroidery and supplemental wool weaving. These aprons are worn at the front (small) and back (large). Do not be fooled by the industrial print - this is merely an appliqued band over an extremely heavy baste fibre ground. Apron number 7 is part of a costume collected in the late 1930's and shows similar attributes although the accompaning back apron has five emroidered streamer panels. There appear to be superficial similarities to at least one of your aprons.


Attachments:
Apr.Yi.07.1.jpg
Apr.Yi.07.1.jpg [ 106.93 KiB | Viewed 13978 times ]
Apr.Yi.07.2.jpg
Apr.Yi.07.2.jpg [ 98.56 KiB | Viewed 13978 times ]
Apr.Yi.07.7.jpg
Apr.Yi.07.7.jpg [ 93.25 KiB | Viewed 13978 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Meow, Miao
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Hi All-
Beautiful aprons Iain! I would love to see the entire costume sometime...
Re the aprons and vest that Leslie found: here is a photo from the large and very heavy book A Picture Album of China's Miao Costumes and Ornaments, p.524, for those of you who have this book. It calls the piece a "cross-stitched streamer" and it represents the style at Kafang Town of Gejiu City in Yunnan Province. I include also, a map (from Lonely Planet's South-west China guidebook), to show this location (Gejiu) and that of Luxi, where Iain's aprons are from; it's about 150km between them.

I find the similarity of the example in the book to Leslie's smaller apron on the left to be quite striking: the geometric design, shape, red and pink colors, and the use of beads. I suspect that her other pieces are also Hmong/Miao from Yunnan Province. We have been seeing, here in Chiang Mai, a lot of "different" textiles coming from Yunnan lately, which suggests that the runners are really exploring that area, having exhausted Guizhou.


Attachments:
Mail-Yunnan-map2.jpg
Mail-Yunnan-map2.jpg [ 66.75 KiB | Viewed 13911 times ]
Mail-Hmong-Miao-Apron.jpg
Mail-Hmong-Miao-Apron.jpg [ 64.09 KiB | Viewed 13911 times ]

_________________
Susan Stem

http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:08 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Leslie

Discussion and research on another thread has drawn my attention to narrow aprons which are quite similar in style - although not embroidery designs - to yours. See http://www.tribaltextiles.info/communit ... php?t=1164 These are from western Guizhou. It is possible that a Miao group in Guizhou could be related to a Miao group in Yunnan as western Guizhou borders Yunnan. It may, however, just be a matter of infulence. I post here a photo of the apron and also the apron being worn - by men - as festival wear.


Attachments:
File comment: Fig 59. Men playing the lusheng pipe at a festival. Hemp culottes. page 32 Miao Costumes from Guizhou Province South West China by Deryn O'Connor
p32mc-men.jpg
p32mc-men.jpg [ 65.93 KiB | Viewed 13415 times ]
File comment: Fig 56 Man's apron, page 33 Miao Costumes from Guizhou Province South West China by Deryn O'Connor
p33-56mc.jpg
p33-56mc.jpg [ 65.6 KiB | Viewed 13415 times ]

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Qing Miao aprons
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:30 am
Posts: 315
I have been looking through a forum member's website looking for a location of a Qing Miao dress that was posted there. As you scroll down on the following link you will see two Qing Miao women wearing aprons. http://ethnovillage.com/blog/category/qing-miao/ The Qing Miao from Nayong County have been commonly grouped under the Long Horn Miao of Suoga and Liuzhi (there is a third area which escapes me right now) possibly due to the similarities in their costume. This would appear to be incorrect as the style of headdress is very different and the significant difference between localities.
In our email communication Herman Yau of EthnoVillage stated that this photo was taken in a remote part of the Laoweng 老翁 area of Nayong County. Of interest to Leslies aprons, apart from a possible similarity :D in color palette, is the use of a "similar" beaded fringe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:51 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Iain, thanks for this interesting link. Tony Chen Hualong has written a short article about the Long Horn Miao and explains 'Qing Miao' http://www.tribaltextiles.info/articles ... _Miao.html although I don't think it helps are current discussion(s).

In the ethno link you can just see the horns poking through the hair.

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:30 am
Posts: 315
On page 286 of the compact guide: "The Clothes and Ornaments of Yunnan Ethnic Groups" ISBN 7-5367-1989-2 there are two baby carriers illustrated. The one on the left is a Miao baby carrier whilst that on the right is from the Yi. Unfortunately there is no specific information locating these carriers in the accompanying text.


Attachments:
File comment: Left: Miao baby carrier
Cheng, Zhi-fang & Li, An-tai, 2000.

yunnan_miao_yi_BC-L.jpg
yunnan_miao_yi_BC-L.jpg [ 71.02 KiB | Viewed 13328 times ]
File comment: Right: Yi baby carrier
Cheng, Zhi-fang & Li, An-tai, 2000.

yunnan_miao_yi_BC-R.jpg
yunnan_miao_yi_BC-R.jpg [ 62.58 KiB | Viewed 13328 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Great sleuthing Pamela and Iain! I have to say that the last two pieces, and especially the first shown, more closely resemble in spirit the items in question. Tho, it could well be a style that is used in several areas and made uniquely in each. I think we're getting quite warm... Many thanks for your efforts!

_________________
Susan Stem

http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Found them!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:51 am
Posts: 69
Location: New York
I found the panels, not the aprons/carriers, on p.173 of The dress and costume of minority nationalities in the western China, which is in Chinese. I had the label on the page translated, which says Miao. That photos is attached.

Next week, I'll have p.168, which is a lengthy introduction, translated and see whether it provides information on sub-tribes and/or location.

When I first saw these, the colors made me believe that the group is related to the Flower Hmong of the Vietnam/China border, near CauCan. Now that I've seen the full costume in the book, the relationship is more striking. I'm attaching photos I took in March, 2008 which show Flowers with the same colors and the capelet, but completely different work. There are two styles of tops seen at the market, and one photo shows three generations of a family wearing both types. Interestingly, one version of these costumes, which are a mix of machine applique and embroidery, is made by Flower women for sale to other Flowers. This is an interesting twist on the "made for tribal use" criteria!


Attachments:
File comment: From the book
MiaoWL5.jpg
MiaoWL5.jpg [ 38.62 KiB | Viewed 12721 times ]

_________________
Anna


Last edited by Ikat on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:14 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Ikat (Anna)

Welcome to the forum! Excellent to have a contribution to this running thread where we are seeking more info on these colourful and graphic baby carriers.

I know you have been having some struggles with your first post, for which I am sorry! Generally the forum allows up to 5 attachments per post and no one attachment should be greater than 500K. In fact I ask that images should generally not be much greater than 60-70K (for speed of loading especially on older/slower computers or slow lines. I also ask that images should not be wider than 600 pix as wider than this tends to distort the easy ready of a thread unless you have a very high resolution screen. Right, that is end of my forum housekeeping sermon for today...!

Ikat/Anna has sent me some of the images that she referred to and I am attaching them to this post. Do have a look at her blog http://tribecatribal.typepad.com/ as it has a vivid description of her visit to N. Vietnam and the area of the Flower Hmong.

I also have some photos from 1995 of some Flowery Hmong in N. Vietnam see http://www.tribaltextiles.info/Gallerie ... ietnam.htm for the photogallery with links to enlargements. Particularly see the middle strip of photos of a Hmong/Miao lady who had come across the border from China for a course in Sa Pa. The 'exuberance' of her costume is similar in style to the photo from the book posted by Ikat.


Attachments:
DoesItFitWL4.jpg
DoesItFitWL4.jpg [ 54.56 KiB | Viewed 12831 times ]
FlowerColorWL4.jpg
FlowerColorWL4.jpg [ 99.41 KiB | Viewed 12831 times ]
FlowerFamilyWL4.jpg
FlowerFamilyWL4.jpg [ 98.04 KiB | Viewed 12832 times ]

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Modern Miao
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:51 am
Posts: 69
Location: New York
An eBay dealer from South China has a couple of fairly recent aprons - and these two photos, which must be what this tribe looks like today.

Photos below thanks to Helen of Village March http://stores.ebay.com/Village-March who gave her permission for them to be posted on this thread. Note her comment about the little girls...


Attachments:
File comment: photo by Helen of Village March http://stores.ebay.com/Village-March
Miao-Yunan-1-WLw.jpg
Miao-Yunan-1-WLw.jpg [ 77.82 KiB | Viewed 12770 times ]
File comment: photo by Helen of Village March http://stores.ebay.com/Village-March. "two girls is from Han Miao subtribe, they live in Honghe, Yunnan province"
Mian-Yunnan-2-WLw.jpg
Mian-Yunnan-2-WLw.jpg [ 73.13 KiB | Viewed 12770 times ]

_________________
Anna
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:06 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Anna

This is getting very exciting! Thanks so much for your contribution to unravelling the mystery! The photo of the little girls, in particular, and Helen's comment that the "two girls is from Han Miao subtribe, they live in Honghe, Yunnan province" is excellent. I look forward to the next installment of the mystery when you can share with us the translation of the text in the book which you referred to earlier.

Best,

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Butt Covers and Tails
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:51 am
Posts: 69
Location: New York
Here is the very loose translation of p.168 of the book I referenced in an earlier post. I am sure that some of the specific garments it refers to are those following it in the book, but the stories and myths are so fascinating that I'm including them. I am indebted to Cheng-Jung Wang, collector of ancient jade, for translating this in the midst of a busy work day.

“Butt Covers”

Archeological remains from Chinghai, Datong County, Shansung Village -a Han Tibetan area show three sets of people dancing. They are wearing similar decoration

An ancient fairy tale speaks of a tail decoration that means a lot to the Yao and Yu, all of whom know the old stories about God Dog:

Emperor Gan Ching was having a boundary war with a uncivilized tribe. He told his people “Whoever can kill the king of this tribe can marry my daughter.” God Dog killed the chieftain and the Emperor married his third daughter to him. After God Dog’s death, people started to use wool skin (??) dyed with cherry to make colorful clothes, all of which had a tail. The Yao and Yu are proud to be the off-spring of God Dog.

Also, ancient Chinese bronzes, have figures with tail cloths on them.

An ancient textbook also mentions this type of cloth: ‘These people have tails 3” to 4” long. Before they sit, they have to dig a hole for their tail. If they break their tail, they die..’

This is how minority people explain why they wear the tail decoration. Most South-Western minorities feel related to them. They prefer cloth with 5 colors. The style is always that of a tail.

Black LoLo use green silk as a hood (??). It is very long and touches the ground. 1 foot long .
Miao LoLo – females wear floral decorations on their breast. They don’t cover anything else except the tail, which touches the ground. This matches the description on? of? bronzes from Yunnan.

Some mountain tribes wear sheepskin [hats?]: Ching, Geba, Yi (I?), Nashi, Pumi. They also wear the tail when they wear this. The tail is very long.

Also, pay attention to the belt buckle, which is a knot.

The North Western tribes wear the knot on the side of their body, in front, inside their pants or by their hand.

The South Western tribes wear the knot so it touches their butts to make it look like a tail: White Bai, Nashi, Yi

Belt Knots: Mia, Yao – wear the belt knot but also weave with many wool threads to make it thick like a real tail.

The Hani like tail decoration. There is a picture from the Red River of a Hani Girl wearing tight pants with loose side. The Butt cover has two arrowhead shield decorations.If you don’t wear this, people laugh at you. After marriage, it is a must. It is shaped like a swallow’s tail. This decoration is for a mature person, a girl who has become a woman. It means that you can open your mind to another person or it symbolizes worship of the bird god.

There is an ancient legend: the Bird God was the first to fly between the sky and the ground. It brought seeds for the entire universe. As a result, life began.

In an ancestor ceremony, show relationship by wearing this design because the 21, 22, and 23 generations in the past were related to the swallow.

Yi (mountain people) – Very attractive butt decoration, 2 diamond shape, white cloth. Sewed full of flowers and diagonally hemmed on the butt.

None of these tribes know why they wear this style, which is seen in Gou Poo (??) and in Vietnam (???).

Ancient Gu Miao also wore them. The nomadic tribes wore a real tail, the agricultural tribes used embroidery.


Attachments:
File comment: Flower Hmong woman in Cau Can, Vietnam, March, 2008. Her unusual hat now looks like the sheepskin tail being described. She is wearing the version of the Flower Hmong costume that most resembles the photo above from this book.
Flower-Hat-VLW.jpg
Flower-Hat-VLW.jpg [ 55.16 KiB | Viewed 12724 times ]

_________________
Anna
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group