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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:43 pm 
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I went looking in some of my older references for anything about the Li. In "Textiles And the Tai Experience in SEAsia" (Textile Museum, 1992), there is the ubiquitous photo by Stueble, 1937. I'd like to quote one comment about the Li (also related to aboriginal Taiwanese, by the way) in historical context...p33 "li skirts raise questions concerning "sin" (as in pha sin,ss) style. patterning other than warp ikat occurs, it appears in bands near the waist, not along the lower border...the Tai Daeng use of supplementary warp waistbands for funerals, and reversal of skirts among many Tai...suggesting the waistband was formerly


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:45 pm 
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Sandie, thanks so much for this reference to the ...Tai Experience.. I KNEW I had seen other Li material in my library but just could not remember where. (I should have realised this the Li are the same 'family' as the Tai/Daic) This book is listed in my bibliographies. I will add the information re pages 32 and 33 to the Li references on the website. Both Olivier and I have skirts with the warp ikat similar to p33 but without the wide band with lots of white. Very fine, subtle weaving. The loom photo is interesting and there some interesting text on page 34. If anyone is interested in the book it can be obtained from the Textile Museum in Washington (by internet as long as you don't have a long dated credit card. I keep trying to get them to amend their farthest date on their expiry date on the site. They have lost 2 orders from me because they won't change it despite me telling them! Pamela


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:46 pm 
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I have come across another reference to Li textiles in a book on Vietnamese textiles. There are four pages of photos of Li pieces, but I was not able to access the text to find the connection to Vietnam. The book is "Studies in the Material Culture of Southeast Asia #3-Textiles of the Daic Peoples of Vietnam". ISBN 974-7534-97-5. It is published through White Lotus in Bangkok: www.thailine.com/lotus or can be purchased through the Textile Museum giftshop in Washington D.C. (also online). There are other textile books in the series worth noting, including Burma, Savu, and Timor.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:48 pm 
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thanks, Mark. This is the book mentioned in my 1 post at the top of this thread (item 2). The book is by Michael and Kim Be Howard and Michael Howard edits the Material Culture series for White Lotus. The link to Vietnam is via 'Daic' as the Li are a Daic people via Kadai. I refer to this in my Li References - see towards the bottom. http://www.tribaltextiles.info/forum/Li_references.htm Note also at the very bottom of Li References a cross reference to yourself! The photos in the Daic book are, of course, from Stubel 1937.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:49 pm 
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Hi Pamela, My mistake, I did read the earlier messages some time ago and forgot that you had already mentioned the reference. I ordered a copy from the Textile Museum and look forward to reading the section on the Li. Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:50 pm 
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I have come across another interesting reference on Li Textiles. It is in German and dates from 1937. It has pages and pages of black and white photos of the Li with more pages in color and black and white of Li textiles and objects. Best group of photos yet! The book name is "Die Li-Stammme der Insel Hainan", by H. Stubel, Berlin 1937. If anyone finds an extra copy let me know. Regards, Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:52 pm 
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Mark, this is the book which is referred to a few times in the posts above and in the Howards in their book on Daic textiles in Vietnam. They reproduce several colour plates from it. I am trying to get hold of a copy. (A NY Asian rare book book dealer has been bugging me to have a link on the tribaltextiles.info site and I challenged him to find it. He said he has only found it once in the last several years so I am not holding my breath!) If anyone is a native English speaker but speaks good German (and knows about textiles) then they might get a commision to translate the Steuble book for White Lotus Press. Michael Howard told me last year that there was some thought of this at White Lotus. I contacted Diethard Ande at White Lotus two or three weeks ago to ask him if it was likely. He came back saying that if this was an offer to translate he would commission me! Unfortunately I do not have the necessary German linguistic skills! I managed to get hold of the 1938 September National Geographic article that Mark recommended and have just finished reading the article. Such a feel of another era - we are so spoilt! I was very interested to see photos in that of tattoos on Ba Sa Dung Li - quite cobweb like. Gives an added dimension to the textiles when you think that they should be set against patterned skin. So, Mark, don't be put off recommending the literature!! As I think you headed an email to me the 'Li Obsession'....!! Stick with it! Pamela


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:53 pm 
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Hi Pamela, I wasn't sure it was the same person as the spelling was slightly different and there was no mention of the name of his book. I am borrowing my friend's copy for now, but will keep looking for a copy for myself. The copy my friend found cost him 200 Euros a year ago! I just received my copy of the Michael Howard book on the Daic and can't wait to get into it. Regards, Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:54 pm 
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Hi Pamela, My apologies again, as you did mention the book. It seems no matter how many times I read the previous messages, I keep missing parts until after I made some comment, oh well. Maybe it is time to get glasses! Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:56 pm 
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Mark, enjoy the Howards' Daic volume. I think it is their best in the Material Culture series. They had published articles previously on ealier reserarch which is incorporated in the book. Don't worry about missing the references. Better to repeat than not to share at all! By the way, if anyone is interested in the National Geographic site, the one I found dealing with old issues - The Geographic Attic - http://members.tripod.com/~Phil_Malarek/

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http://www.tribaltextiles.info
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:01 pm 
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Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Greetings all - You may be interested in the new page of Li textiles which I have just posted on my site. http://www.tribaltrappings.com/TACH_6.html Some are sold, but are there as visual references. Please feel free to contact me with questions etc. And many thanks to all who have contributed reference sources to this discussion. You might also be interested in knowing that Li textiles are being avidly collected by Thai collectors here as they represent a connection to their long distant antecedants. Unfortunately, all this attention seems to have reduced the supply and driven up the prices. Best regards to all.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:02 pm 
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Susan, what a FANTASTIC photo resource! I have had a quick look through and am dying to go back for a proper look. Some nice details. Of course, I yearn for the most expensive - always knew I had that sort of taste! Way out of my price league but excellent to be able to see it. Interesting to know that the Thais are now keen collectors. I bought 2 of my Li pieces in Bangkok last October. I am currently working on a page on Ba-Sa-Dung Li based on the article by Leonard Clark in the Sep 1938 National Geographic article. I hope no one will mind if I reproduced a few of the photos. I have tried contacting the National Geographic but a dead silence. Leonard Clark is dead and I hope that his family would be pleased that his expeditions and photos are valued by us. I will post a link to this thread when I have finished and loaded the pages. Thanks again, Susan for such lovely photos! Pamela


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:04 pm 
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As promised above I have now completed a small gallery on Leonard Clark article in the September 1938 article in The National Geographic. http://www.tribaltextiles.info/forum/Ba-Sa-Dung-Li.htm Aside from a map, the three photos are of Ba-sa-dung Li women showing their textiles and tattoos. My thanks to Mark Johnson for pointing me in the direction of this Li resource. Pamela


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 Post subject: Li references
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 6:15 pm 
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Just to let the Li enthusiasts know that I have amended the web page (and relevant links) for Li references http://www.tribaltextiles.info/forum/Li_references.htm Susan Stem kindly pointed out to me that there seemed to be confusion between two Japanese books in the references. I went back over the references and found that she was correct. I had incorrectly attributed a photo of Ba Sa Dung Li women which Mark Johnson sent me to a very expensive Japanese book on the Li which has been recommended to me but which I have never seen. In fact, the photo comes from a little book 'Costumes of the Minority Peoples of China' which is in my own library (see bibliography pages for China http://www.tribaltextiles.info/bibliogr ... s.htm#jmpc ). Thanks to Susan drawing my attention to my error I have now realised that the little book has several pages of (good quality) photos both of different Li sub groups and of their costumes. I have now detailed the page numbers in the references. Some of the captions are in Japanese but I am going to try and get these translated. Any useful information I will add to the references. Sorry if I have misled anyone!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:51 am
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Very interesting forum! I just came across another interesting Li tube skirt. Well, from the source I got in China, It was claimed from Li people and I was convinced by the design on the top of the skirt.
I would like to share some photos and hope to hear from anyone who know the sub-group or any more infos.

Sandra, sorry for my disappearing... wish to chat with you sometimes again.
Thanks,


Attachments:
new li.jpg
new li.jpg [ 71.6 KiB | Viewed 9374 times ]
new li_det1.jpg
new li_det1.jpg [ 77.81 KiB | Viewed 9374 times ]
new li_det2.jpg
new li_det2.jpg [ 75.65 KiB | Viewed 9374 times ]


Last edited by ethnoecho on Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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