tribaltextiles.info

It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:37 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:03 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
So, Susan, the stipes are weft stripes and not warp stripes since the selveges are at right angles to the stripes? Am I right?

I agree with you that it is really 'challenging' for the weaver to get the two halves of the skirt to exactly match in pattern. This will not just be a case of having the same number of weft threads in each pattern in each half but also that the same tension has been maintained in the weaving throughout the whole length of cloth which has been cut into 2 (or more) pieces. This is particularly difficult where there are different weaving patterns which may very easily cause some change in tension. Then it is necessary to get the tension right (or adjust appropriately) and carefully match the patterns in the sewing. As someone who has done a lot of dressmaking/tailoring, I can testify that, even if the patterns match exactly, it is so easy for the patterns to 'slip' in the sewing. Such a raft of skills needed and pitfalls to avoid! I reckon that your weaver/seamstress did a pretty good job!

The loom width would seem to be a pretty fair upright loom width. Of course, the looms are not mass produced so can slightly vary in size and could very well vary in different communities even of the same group. Also, it depends whether the full width of the loom is used for taking the warp threads. The width is a 'maximum possible' not an absolute standard. Depending on how rigidly put together the loom is it could be possible to change the width by inserting different cross pieces of wood. However, I don't think this would normally be done as standard.

Thanks for the range of photos; very interesting and helpful.

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:27 am
Posts: 124
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Susan-

Your Lue piece is a great one. How about some details of the skirt. I too have never seen anything exactly like it, but no doubt it is Tai Lue. Can't tell , if the wiggly part is woven or what.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:13 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Dear All

Earlier in this thread I referred to a photo of an antique sin muk with supplementary warp and weft designs on page 13 of Patricia Cheesman Naenna's book 'Costume and Culture: Vanishing textiles of some of the T'ai groups in Laos P.D.R.' I contacted Patricia to ask her if I could post the photo on the forum and she has very kindly agreed:
Quote:
"It will be fine for you to use that photo for discussion and posting to the forum. It is there for educational use."

To me this sin muk seems to have some similarities with Bill's complex piece which started the thread.


Attachments:
File comment: a photo of an antique sin muk with supplementary warp and weft designs on page 13 of Patricia Cheesman Naenna's book 'Costume and Culture: Vanishing textiles of some of the T'ai groups in Laos P.D.R.'
sin_muk_43_pnaena.jpg
sin_muk_43_pnaena.jpg [ 62.78 KiB | Viewed 5784 times ]

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Last edited by Pamela on Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
These textiles are very beautiful, but I think it's a mistake to call newer pieces soul-less. We tend to think that the only market for newer pieces are farangs. But as long as textiles still maintain their social and religious functions within T"ai society, there will always be a reason for textiles to be made and sold for the indigenous population: weddings, Buddhhistic rituals, love tokens, are just a few uses for hand-loomed textiles.

May I direct one and all to my web page (courtesy of Pamela); please check the rightmost pha biang on the first line, and the middle piece in row two. The interplay of light and dark threads, the off-center placement of some motifs, are designed to illustrate the two Buddhistic principles of Illusion and Impermanence. I think this is the basic concept behind many textiles which show a shimmering effect.

And don't forget, not every woman wove, so there has always been a market for excellent hand-loomed textiles within communities.

Sandie

PS Help!! Does anybody have an idea re: mystery textile?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:27 am
Posts: 124
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Susan-
Especially in the last ten years there has been an incredible increase in teh quality of weaving technique in Laos. Carol Cassidy is certainly responsible for alot of this. Women throughout Laos have learned there is a market for good textiles. And yes there are some very good onesw.

The problem I have is your statement that these textiles still have the same social and religious significance. They simply don't. At least the ones being sold in the markets. However, they are a great boon to the economy, both in a macro and a micro sense.

The losses that have occurred are in the hiddeen mean, the social communications of the traditional pieces. Now weavers are simply copying popular forms from the Tai Daeng and the Tai Lue primarily. But the symbols are all jumbled and the weaver doesn't have a clue of the original meaning, as the weaver may be a Christian weaving animist icons, when her tribal group had no contact with animists.

I somehow appreciate the older pieces that were done for social position and religious expression. They seem more meaningful and better woven, which is probably true.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: latent (covert) meaning
PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 12:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
Sorry Bill,

I disagree with you. There is no way to judge the latent content of a textile by looking at it. The attitude of a weaver to a given piece can only be found by asking. Or by consdering its use.

I am not by training an anthropologist, but I've done ethnographic field work. And I have the advantage of my husband who can speak almost all SEAsian languages except for Burmese, and my conclusion is that it is too easy to dismiss newer cloths as souless, since how would we know? Remember, there has always been a market for commercial weaving in both Thailand and Laos.

And age can be very difficult to determine. But surely, if you look at many textiles this sad truth becomes transparent.

Sandie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: dazed and confused
PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Bill-I don't know where you got the idea that I said something about "these textiles having the same social and religious significance"... first, to what are you referring as "these textiles", and second, I wouldn't have said that because I don't know that they do. I've been to Laos and I, too know that much of the weaving being done is in response to the robust commercial market for their textiles. I also know that in Thailand there is still a lot of weaving of traditional designs going on for the Thai market, so I have to wonder whether all the meaning has been lost. This is one of those areas with many shades of grey- one cannot categorically state it's one thing or another. It depends on the weaver, her market, etc. And unless we are on intimate terms with all those factors we can only speculate.
Sandie- "Soul-less" is a pretty strong term and one that I don't recall anyone using in regard to newer textiles. Your point about not all women weaving and there being a market within the community is a good one. Now, more than ever, as long as the community wears, uses and values textiles of traditional design, that market will flourish since there are fewer weavers. Here, in Thailand women still wear pha sins of traditional design for ceremonial occasions, so they are still valued and are 'in fashion', and are being woven for that market. Many of them are even made with natural dyes! In Thailand, we have the support of Queen Sirikit to thank for the continuation of much of today's traditional weaving. She wears clothing made of handwoven Thai fabrics and shows active interest in the weavers and their products.

_________________
Susan Stem

http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: old wine in new bottles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
Hi all,

Thank you Susan, for setting the record straight regarding the maintance of textile traditions within Thailand. Laos is a different matter entirely, of course; the social disruption before and after the Vietnam war and the wholesale migration of both Lowland Lao and Hilltribes (leaving out Vietnam) to the US has been devastating to this land-locked country.

Also note that the King and Queen of Thailand have been instrumental in developing the crafts for sale not only of ethnic Thais, but Karen and hilltribes as well, much earlier than they appeared in the US. And the recent introduction of texiles from the ethnic Malay regions of southern Thailand into the Bangkok market is due solely to the efferts of HM Queen Sirikit. I have a few textiles and a number of photos which I'll post.

I should not have used the term souless without remarking I was responding to a comment by Bill. I am deeply concerned about his aggressive comments on the Forum, not only to me, but to others as well. I am also concerned that my comments regarding attribution or age of a textile reappear shortly under his name.

I am thinking specifically of my instant identification some months ago of Richard's mystery textile "Is it Karen", suddenly reappearing under his name months later as soon as he joined the Forum.

I am making these comments publicly to try and steer the Forum members back from this sudden aggressiveness brought to the Forum. There's room for all of us here, and we're all here to learn from one another. PLEASE let's go back. As I said before, we're a mellow bunch on this Forum.

Sandie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:23 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
I am concerned that there seem to be some tensions on the forum at the moment.

The whole purpose of the www.tribaltextiles.info/community is to share, support and bring together our international community of textiles collectors, experts and enthusiasts.

A web forum suffers from some of the same problems as email in that something typed out quickly and directly can be read in a different way from the ‘voice in our head’ as we type. I don’t want to stifle enthusiasm and spontaneity but please can we have a little more caution in what is typed.

The forum has a very good facility for pressing ‘preview’ before you send. I find it amazing the number of times I pick up typos and realise what I have said is confusing when I read my text in the ‘preview’ screen as it will be read by other forum members.

It is easy in all the many posts on the forum to miss what has been said before. I think that we all need to be patient when this happens – we are, after all, human!

I value the contribution which each member of the forum makes in their own, individual way. We are separated by thousands of miles, many cultures and experiences but united in a common passion for traditional textiles. Each person has their own special contribution to make for the greater knowledge of us all. Please don’t throw away what has been developed over the last year or so. May I ask you all for just a little bit more give and take with a large sprinkling of understanding and flexibility?

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:06 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Alaska, USA
Thank you Pamela, for addressing this issue with such tact. Keep up the great work and thank you so much for providing us with a forum to discuss the relative topic of tribal textiles.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group