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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:01 pm 
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I thought I would show you some pics of this Tai Daeng skirt. It is a combination of different techniques aimed a creating a vibration-like effect. The technique is comprised of supplimental weft, discontinuous supplimental weft and supplimental warp. The colors are all vegetable dyed. While the colors initially appear to be randomly placed, on further viewing it is clear the color placement was part of her intention to create this vibrational effect. Other techmiques contributing ther effect, are the alternating squares of supplimental warp and the band in the warp where she alternates indigo and blue threads, creating a shimmering effect.

The colors are lightened for better viewing. The color is more orangish, but I can't seem to get a good simulation on photoshop, so I don't try.

What is unusual about this peiece, other than its rare quality of weaving and design, is the use of color in its design. The Tai Daeng do use color, but in a traditional way, alternating a blue and a yellow peacock. In essense traditional use of color. They are famous for their colors, one of the only exceptions is the black phaa Biaangs used by the shaman where the entire piece is white except for small and infrequent bits of color- sometimes as little as five bits of color in an entire ten-foot shawl. The other exception I can think of is the square, irregularly colored meditation squares shown in the Gittenger- Lefferts book.

The art of juxtiposing color as a centerpoint of the textile is a skill I think of as being from the Tai Lue, who use color combinations with a sophistication rare in the other Tai groups.

In any event I thought you might enjoy this.

Sorry for the bad definition on the details.
Shemale Student Sleeping Frog-Sex Masturbation Hairy Foreplay Legs Model Clit Group-Sex Tricked Desk Smokin-Movies Couple Oral Juicy Beauty Tanned Uniform Muff-Diving Cum-Swallowing Speculum Femdom Vintage Throat-Fucked Natural-Boobs Plumper Monster-Cock Squirting Solo Pale Black-Teen Shy First-Time Messy-Facials Mature Long-Hair Threesome MILF


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Last edited by Bill Hornaday on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:26 am 
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Bill- That is an amazing piece! Can you tell us more about it- size (so we can relate the weaving size), other woven panels (is there a side with dark plainweave and supplemental stripes peeking out?), where is it from, materials, approximate age range? Thanks for sharing (and making us envious)!

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 Post subject: Size
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:18 am 
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It's about 3 feet by 6 feet. I'm not sure how old it is, but it would shock me if it was newer than very early 20th. It has the "hand" and feel of an older piece. Also, I think the finer pieces are mostly older, as society and security put limits on cultural activities. This is why weaving disappated in the 20th century in Laos. The women are now starting to regain their skills, because of the money in weaving. However, the animist/religious meaning is long gone.

Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:47 pm 
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Bill,

What is the material? Silk or cotton? Does the pha sin have the usual structural division of top, middle, end piece? What about the weft? I'm not sure it's Tai Daeng, since red is almost always in the body of the textile.

If it doesn't fit the structure of a pha sin, you are dealing with a textile that has been butchered for sale, or has some other use.

Sandie


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 Post subject: What material is it?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:58 pm 
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It is silk in its entirety. I am not sure what structure you are talking about in a Tai Daeng tube skirt. What do you mean in this context. I have at least 20 Phaa sin and they are are based on the same one piece of material with designs. What are you seeing in this piece that brings up the issue of phoneyness. It is one piece of cloth. There are no joins whatsoever. In terms of use, a woman could have put a cotton top panel. There is nothing in the piece that could have been a part of an earlier piece.

Clarify what you mean by butchered. Are you talking about different panels being put together to look like one piece. The main body of a Tai Daeng skirts is almost always one piece of cloth(I think always, but I am keeping myself covered). This is true whether it is mat mi, supplimental weft, or a combination. Many other items, blankets, Phaa Biangs, and other are comprised a several panels combined. But not the Phaa Sin.

Do you have any pictures of a "Butchered Piece?"

Bill

Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:25 am 
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Bill and Sandie-
I see lots of Tai Daeng pha sin and often there are no additive bands of fabric; sometimes they have been removed, or never were there to begin with. If they have been removed one can usually detect some remaining threads or other evidence of stitching. What is amazing is that what is usually an added decorative band at the bottom is, in Tai Daeng skirts, woven into the main body of the skirt. In Bill's example that decorative 'band' spans the entire skirt. What I cannot figure out about Bill's skirt is what is going on at the left and right edge- is your photo of it opened up and these are the beginning and end of the weaving? Perhaps this is what Sandie is referring to?

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 Post subject: calm down
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:50 am 
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Calm down Bill. I have never used the term "phony", I'm merely asking if this particular textile could have another use than as a pha sin. Checking the selvage, looking for (the structure) a cotton top or a khit bottom are legitimate questions with legitimate answers if one is interested in the origin, age, and use of a particular textile.

As for "butchered" textiles, if as a collecter you have never run across one, you are lucky. Have you ever seen the supplementery weft ends of a larger pha biang cut for individual sale? I have, and will post one or two. I also have pha sin in my collection which are very beautiful, but had the khit removed to be sold separately. This is what I mean by a butchered textile: a cloth which is clearly missing an important segment which is removed specifically for separate sale.

We're a mellow bunch on this Forum.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:03 am 
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Bill - hope you don't mind but I turned around your photo of the complete textile to a portrait layout so that it does not distort the page width of the text posts. It makes them easier to follow. (in the process the photo moved ahead of the 2 details.)

I don't know who amongst you have a copy of Paticia Cheesman Naenna's book 'Costume and Culture: Vanishing textils of some of the T'ai groups in Laos PDR'. I know that Susan Stem and I both have copies but that it is currently out of print.

On page 6 Patricia talks of
Quote:
'The costumes of the Red T'ai (T'ai Daeng). The classic ceremonial tubeskirt of that period (1941) was made in indigo cotton incorporating four major textile techniques: silk supplementary warp and weft designs together with warp and weft ikat. This extraordinary textile is still woven today and is called sin muk. Today, however, it is no longer as popular as the sin thieu which has a simpler warp ikat and supplementary weft hem but is still woven in one piece. The design is easier to weave than the sin muk and eventually an even more convenient textile was made for cermonial use. By the middle of this century (20th) the sin tin yai was made from commercial fabric and a separate woven hem piece. These hem pieces could be made on smaller looms and took less time and material which was necessary during the time of war. Each skirt had two or three waistbands, one striped or plain red and an indigo one making the skirt long enough to wrap around the breassts and still fall to mid-calf or the ankles.


On page 13 are some interesting photos of details of sin muk and one in particular, #43 'Antique sin muk with supplemental warp and weft degins' is very reminiscent of Bill's complex textile. Additional detail on #43. on page 40 says: "Detail of antique tubeskirt of the Red T'ai showing the supplementary warp yarns running in the opposite direction to the supplentary weft yarns."

Bill, Sandie, let me know if you don't have access to this book (which is now out of print) and I will scan the photo and email to you. As I have Patricia's email I may ask her if I can show direct on this thread. See page 2 of this thread where photo posted following receipt of Patricia's permission to post to the forum.
Perhaps we ought to have a 'reference' thread which has diagrams of some basic textile forms and the names which can be used for them especially in T'ai world textiles which are a favourite with members. I don't have the time to do it at the moment but I will bear it in mind.

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Last edited by Pamela on Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: selvedge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:29 pm 
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Sandy-

The piece doesn't have selvedge on any of the four sides. It was meant to be attached on the ends, of course, as it is a tube skirt. The weft edges are most probably woven in anticipation of bottom and top panels being attached - usually a plain top panel or a hoa buan for older or dead women. The bottom is often ended with a narrow bank with a simpler design, although there are exceptions with more complicated designs. So as it is without these bands, it certainly is not complete. Generally after looking at about ten phaa sin, I didn't find a clear selvedge on any of them. Everyone should take a look at theirs. However, these end panels are often changed because of damage or to put on another band for social meaning. I have seen Phaa sin worn without the lower band, but usually they have the cotton panel at the top. Lots of pieces are acquired without the panels as they may be dirty or damaged or the simple panels are thought not to be valuable. For a fine piece I give it no mind, although for the anthropologist it is an infamy. I'm in it for the weaving - the art of the piece. I have the top panel for this piece, but took it off for the framing as I thought it distracted from the piece. I try to get the most complete pieces I can, but it's not the most important thing for pieces I either buy or sell.

Bill
Pamela-

I have that book and have even shown that picture to illustrate the technique. Somehow I never saw the forest of similar technique through the trees of individual design. Good eyes, Pamela

Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:22 am 
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In Patricia's book y'all might want to also check out #105 and the caption in the back relating to it in reference to this piece. Also, if there is no selvedge ("an edge of cloth so woven that it does not unravel"- Oxford American Dictionary), then it must have been cut... or has 'selvedge' got some other meaning in textile expert jargon?

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 Post subject: Selvedge
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:48 pm 
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Susan is completely right about the definition of selvedge, which can be something elaborate as in a persian rug or as simple as a rough hem. I am afraid I have found myself writing a thoughtless reply, when my mind was on another crisis unrelated to textiles or this forum. My irritation at the word "butchered" being used in relation to one of my favorite pieces, got my goat at an unfortunate time. I am usually not so sensitive.

With regard to this textile all remnants of a hem were removed in the mounting, when then tube skirt was opened up. On looking at other intact phaa sin, there doesn't seem to be an elaborate selvedge, but merely a simple hem. In several cases it seems as though each of the ends were not hemed separately, but were hemed together on the warp ends being sewn together.

Bill


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 Post subject: selvedge
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 pm 
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A selvedge is naturally created in the weaving process. The warp threads go lengthways down the piece of fabric and are tied each end to hold them firm unless it is continuous warp when the threads will have no break at the end. You can't quite get a continuous piece of woven fabric as it is impossible to get the shuttle - or a person's hand - through without some sort of gap. (The warp threads will have been threaded through any 'shed' which is in between i.e a mechanism to lift up the threads and separate the warp threads to allow different threads to be raised and lowered.)

The weft threads go from side to side and, at the end of each 'row', will then turn around and go back through the warp threads to the other side going under the thread (or threads) which the thread went over when passing through the warp previously. It is the 'turning around of the weft threads at each side of the warp which creates the selvedge which does not unravel. There is no reason why the selvedge should be very complicated and in most cases it is not although it can be - and even have beads threaded in at the edge as the thread turns around.

In basic terms the selvedge in weaving is no more than this simple process.

sorry, I don't meant to be too simplistic or suggest that people don't know what a selvedge is (but a word can sometimes take on a 'mystique').

Sometimes the selvedge may be at the top and therefore also bottom of a skirt - which is usually the case with a pha sin although sometimes the skirt may be created by cutting two lengths of warp and joining the selvedges together (as side seams) and then the cut edges will be at the top and bottom. If you look in the literature you will see that your attention is sometimes drawn to certain groups whose pha sins are made of 2 joined pieces with side seams rather than a warp circle around the person.

Bill, in the case of your particular piece posted here the warp threads are going lengthways down the fabric and, if there were selvedges, they would be to left and right as shown in the long rectangle (after I switched your photo around). All of which, of course, you know.

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 Post subject: T'ai one on...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:44 pm 
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Pamela has made a good point about the possible configurations of 'pha sin': Bill's, with the design running with the warp (longitudinally), is intended to have a seam connecting the two ends along the weft. Typically those of the T'ai Lue do not: the design runs laterally, along the weft and because the looms are not real wide, must be cut and combined with two seams, and then the top is hemmed/finished with stitching, or could have a waist band attached. I have one in my collection and will try to photograph it to show how it works. I must say that the end result can be less than ideal, as the two seamed pieces don't always match up right (mine is a good example) and it hangs a bit crooked. But I wear and enjoy it anyway!

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 Post subject: Let's see your Tai Lue.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:06 pm 
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Susan-

Let's see your Tai Lue skirt. I am surprised about the small looms of the Tai Lue. I thought they were using the same looms as the rest of the Lao. For example the piece on the cover of the Gittenger- Lefferts Book. Some people call this the Tai Hun, but I think it is from a subset of the Tai Lue.Certainly was woven on a big loom. Not big enough for a blanket- they are always in two pieces, but just fine for a phaa sin. There is a Lue loom in Gittenger. Might be that some lues use smaller looms and others bigger ones.

Good subject for inquiry.

Bill


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 Post subject: T'ai another one on...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:54 am 
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Bill- Some good points about the loom assumption: in rethinking it and studying the textile I have come to the conclusion that the loom size may even be larger- certainly not a backstrap. My skirt is 32.75" wide. The difference is that this 'pha sin' is not intended to have a waistband added on for extra length, status, or both. It has two seams, at the selvedges, and then is 'hemmed' at the top and bottom with hand stitching (see last photo). This sounds like a clever idea: the seams are not bulky, and the design can cover the entire length without interruption. However, you can see how it can go wrong, as in my example where the two pieces don't match up very well (most obvious in 2nd photo). On the enclosed photos I've brightened/lightened the piece for the sake of clarity; and it is faded on one side. I don't think this piece is very old, tho I've owned it 7 or so years- who knows? It doesn't look like the modern T'ai Lue work I've seen lately at textile exhibitions, tho, in either coloration or design, but everyone agreed that it was T'ai Lue.


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