tribaltextiles.info

It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:58 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Me again- apologies for not citing the tribal group as in Dr. Howard's book: Jingpho in the Kachin State in north Burma. He makes a special mention about these bags which are called "n'hpye" and are carried by men and usually presented as a gift by the woman who made it (p.63). According to Dr. Howard there are also Jingpho speakers in SW Yunnan and a few in northern India (see p.59).

_________________
Susan Stem

http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 5
Location: singapore
This is definitely Kachin (and possibly Jingpho) as Susan has referenced from Howard's book. I have a bag which I purchased in Yangon several years ago which is more similar to Bill's than to that illustrated in Howard's book.

I will attempt to attach a photo for comparison.


Attachments:
13008_email.jpg
13008_email.jpg [ 109.11 KiB | Viewed 13404 times ]

_________________
digna
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: welcome - and thanks!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Digna

Welcome to the www.tribaltextiles.info/community forum!

What an excellent first post! Your photo indeed illustrates a bag very similar to Bill's.

I shall be hastening home to my reference library this evening for the Howard book and I believe that I may have other Jingpho photos, possibly from Yunnan.

Many thanks for sharing both your knowledge and collection.

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Cheam, UK
Bill
In connection with your post dated Sat 7th Feb I was wondering if you could clarify who the groups living near the Chin but not mentioned in the Burma hilltribe books are, I'm intrigued!
Secondly the fact that the bag is more than likely Kachin is interesting and research into textiles made by the Mishmi and other hill tribes in Arunachal Pradesh bordering on the remote areas of highland Burma to the northwest, could be interesting. The Mishmi, a Tibeto-Burman speaking people, as are the Kachin, make some rather heavy looking textiles but these are difficult to find illus of as the textile tradition of northeast India appears to be little explored. I feel that the highland cultures of Arunachal are something of an extension of the upper Burma cultural sphere.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Cheam, UK
Pamela
I am very keen on your suggestion that we meet up and look at Tai and other textiles in your collection. ( possibly also, now Kachin if you have any). After the end of March I will have my new holiday allocation and will therefore find it easier to get the odd day off from work (weekends can be difficult but not impossible). Perhaps we can arrange a convienient date? I think you may have my email


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: design elements
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
I'm pleased the "mystery" bag mystery has finally been solved. But let me make a few comments about the "snake" or meandering design on this textile.

I think it is important, but sometimes difficult, to distinguish between design elements and cultural symbols. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the diamond motif is thought to have come in Tai textiles through Bhutan. In fact the diamond is also a Buddhist motif in the textiles of the non-Theravada Buddhist Tai; the Tai Dam and Tai Daeng, for example, where it represents the Third Eye.

But the diamond is also a standard motif throughout the weaving world where supplementary weft is used; it's easy to weave, and is attractive. Does it mean that the diamond is now a Buddhist motif wherever it is woven? Of course not.

The same can be said of the "naak", the snake motif found throughout the Tai world. This motif is a cultural symbol of great potency, a nature myth, an origin myth, and as woven by the Tai, a complex visual symbol representing rebirth, fecundity, and union with natural forces.

Does that mean the meandering design on this bag holds the same meaning as it does to the Tai? The motif is also found throughout the world of weaving. But in this case, I'm not sure. If the bag's origin was discovered to be elsewhere, away from Indic influence (where the Tai "naak" ultimately comes from ) I'd say it was merely a weaving congruence, but perhaps in Upper Burma, it may have latent meaning as well.

Sandie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:31 am
Posts: 11
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Hello everyone,

The bag shown is a Khampti or Singpho (Jingphaw) bag as they are common in the Changlang and Lohit districts of Arunachal Pradesh / NE-India. In September I was lucky to be photographing the Northeast India collection of the Ethnological Museum, Berlin, for a proposed exhibtion, where a similar piece turned up which had been collected there in the 1870's.

As a reference you may look up Verrier Elwin's "Art of the Northeast Frontier of India".

The owner may call him/herself lucky! These pieces are beautiful!

We're working on a book on Arunachal where the piece mentioned should be published. If the community wishes I could post the bag I've photographed for comparison purposes.

Let me know

Peter

_________________
Peter van Ham


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Cheam, UK
I have just looked at my copy of "Art of the Northeast frontier of India"(Verrier Elwin) in response to Peter's post above and found some information which may be of interest. Firstly on the colour plate opp page 40 is a colour drawing of designs on a Singpho textile which features two snakes forming bold zigzag patterns wraped around a central panel. The snakes heads converge at the top. It is described as a border design. Two other seperate borders at the top of the plate feature patterns that are, to me, reminicent of Tai textile motifs. It may be significant that the khamptis, a Tai people live in the same general area.
As to the question about possible mythological significance of snake and diamond motifs in textiles of Arunachal, (and by extension, Burmerse hill peoples), there are folktales suggesting their connection with fertility, and how they came to be important symbols in the textiles of tribal peoples of this region.
Verrier Elwin documents two in the above book:
The first tells of how a fisherman of the Mishmi tribe caught two fish one of which he kept in a gourd as it was too beautiful to eat. When he returned each day to his house he found great quantities of cloth patterned with fish scales and the markings of a snake. He soon discovered that the fish turned into a girl with long hair during his absence and that she had a loom at which she produced textiles in abundance. The young man took her as his wife and she taught all the women of the tribe to weave. She told him that when she was a fish she looked at the snake in the river and copied the marks on its body and followed its colours reflected in the clouds. After this first weaver died, the gods took the sword from her loom and made it into a diamond pattern. that is why there are so many diamonds on Mishmi cloth.
The second story is a tale from the Sherdukpens of western Arunachal Pradesh and concerns a girl who falls in love with a snake who at times takes the form of a handsome youth. The snake coils in her lap as she weaves and she copies the patterns on her lover's body and soon makes the most beautiful textiles ever seen.
Whether such snake designs among the Singpho in Arunachal and those in Burma have similar tales associated with them is, at this stage a matter of conjecture, but, I think worthy of further research.

Peter,
Have you got a publisher and dates of publication yet for your Arunachal Pradesh book? I eagerly await it!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:22 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Susan Stem in the last post at the end of page one of this thread referred to a photo appearing in Michael Howard's book 'Textiles of the Hill Tribes of Burma' page 163, plate 120 showing a Jinpho N'hpye or shoulder bag, 26cm x 32 cm. This has a similar plaited handle to both of the other bags shown in this thread.

Susan has been in touch with Dr Howard to ask if, on this forum, we can post from time to time a photo from his books. I am very pleased to hear from Susan that Dr Howard has speedily and supportively said 'yes' as long as we cite the source - which, of course we will. I am, therefore, attaching the photo which caught Susan's eye earlier in the search to identify Bill's puzzling bag. I am hoping that Peter van Ham will also post the photo which he refers to in his post and have invited him by email to do so. I would like to be able to put all the bags together on a web page - if all the collectors are agreeable - as a mini photogallery of Jingpho bags to both link to this thread and appear on the www.tribaltextiles.info main site.

I quote below the written text from page 117 of Dr Howard's book (1999 edition) specifically describing the textile below. Full details of the book can be found as the first book listed on the Burma bibliography page on the tti site http://www.tribaltextiles.info/bibliogr ... _books.htm

Quote:
Jingpho: 120. N'hpye (shoulder bag), plaited cotton strap, body mde of plain white cotton warp thread with the weft made of various colors and including some patterning near near the top of the bag, body 26cm x 32cm. Innes (1957: 19) reports that, according to E.R. Leach, such bags with plaited straps "probably came from the Maru or Lashi region which lies between the N'mai Hka river and the Yunnan border." (BM:GK1)


Attachments:
File comment: Figure 120. page 163 of 'Textiles of the Hill tribes of Burma' by Michael C Howard "N'hpye (shoulder bag), 26cmx32cm (BM:GK1)
mh01.jpg
mh01.jpg [ 57.67 KiB | Viewed 13422 times ]

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Last edited by Pamela on Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Cheam, UK
Just to let everyone know about the new book I picked up the other day which is very relavant to this thread. It is called "Textiles from Burma" Elizabeth Dell, Sandra Dudley and features items and photos from the James Henry Green collection housed in Brighton. It includes textiles with accompanying field photos of Kachin, Chin, Karenic and Naga peoples among others. What is of particular interest in this context is fine photographs of beautiful Kachin Jingpaw bags much more like the specimens illus in this post, rather than that in the Howard's book.
Refs from "Textiles of Burma" are as follows: -
Page 164- bag, 16- close up detail, 9, detail of womens belt which is very similar and page 71 photo of Jinghpaw man showing how bag is carried and how it intergrates with the overall costume. There is detailed text which I have only had time to glance at ,but this book looks like a MUST see. Should have found it sooner, but it is always good to have a mystery!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:36 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Siriol

thanks for this info. Susan Stem heard about the book this week but had not seen it. She had heard that Paragon Books had it. I ordered it 'blind' (so glad you are giving it such a good recommendation!) on Thursday - book junkie that I am
Paragon are only getting it in on 29 Feb. http://www.paragonbook.com/html/browses ... item=28496

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Textiles from Burma
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:46 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
I had not realised that the full title of the book book 'Textiles from Burma' was, in fact, 'Textiles from Burma: Featuring the James Henry Green Collection' and it is edited (rather than written by) Elizabeth Dell and Sandra Dudley. You may ask why this makes any difference. Well, the Green Collection is located in Brighton, Sussex in the UK. Some of you may have seen the beautiful book 'Burma: Frontier Photographs 1918-1935" also from the James Henry Green Collection and this was edited by Elizabeth Dell.

I discovered this further information, not from my copy of what will be a very well travelled (and expensive) book arriving from the US but from a very interesting review of the book in the February 2004 Newsletter of the Oxford Asian Textile Group of which I am a member. I have asked the editor if I can quote in full as I found it a particularly interesting review. When I get a response I will either quote in full or just some snippets depending on the response.

I have not yet visited the Green collection in Brighton but it is on my list of 'things to do' - and this has pushed it further up the list. I decided to have a look for web information on the Brighton Museum and Art Gallery website where the Green collection is housed. http://www.brighton.virtualmuseum.info/ ... index.html takes you directly to the James Green Gallery of World Art. A link to James Green http://www.brighton.virtualmuseum.info/ ... ctors.html has a nice outline on James Green. A Kachin textiles link on that page takes you to http://www.brighton.virtualmuseum.info/ ... tiles.html this talks of a very interesting project to creat new (Kachin) textiles - 17 wedding outfits. Near the bottom of this page, was a small photo of two bags - a new and an old one - which are very similar indeed to Bill's puzzling bag and its 'friends' that have appeared on this thread. (Unfortunately it seems that I missed what must have been a fascinating exhibition of the textiles in 2002/03).

I have slightly enlarged the photo of the two bags which appears on the Brighton Museum and Art Gallery website. The text by the photos says:
Quote:
Some Kachin weavers own older textiles that they use as records of traditional designs. The bag on the right has been in Gwi Kai Nan's family for more than four generations. She used it as an inspiration for the new bag on the left, which was commissioned by the Museum. The design is one of the most difficult to weave and today few people know how to reproduce it. Gwi Kai Nan has been asked by many people, including foreign dealers, to sell the older bag but recognises its value as a record of her cultural heritage.

There is no reference to the particular Kachin group i.e. Jingpho. I do enjoy these 'journeys of discovery' into which these mystery textiles can lead us!


Attachments:
File comment: 2 Kachin bags which appears on the Brighton Museum and Art Gallery website. The bag on the right has been in Gwi Kai Nan's family for more than four generations. She used it as an inspiration for the new bag on the left, which was commissioned by the Muse
kachin_bagse.jpg
kachin_bagse.jpg [ 52.16 KiB | Viewed 13445 times ]

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Last edited by Pamela on Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
Re:"Textiles from Burma".

I picked up a copy of this beautiful book from one of the contributer's at an Ethnic Art show in San Francisco: John Barker.

Don't let the format fool you. It contains a very important addition to the literature of collecting, and a thorough discussion of textiles from the various Burmese States.

Since purchasing it last week, I have spent many happy hours reading it.

Sandie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Textiles from Burma
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:28 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
My copy of Textiles from Burma arrived today. It is BEAUTIFUL! Lovely, sharp detailed photos and looks like interesting text.

re - puzzling bag - I must quote from page 9 against a large detail of a Jingphaw weaving the following comments:
Quote:
Detail: woman's belt, Kachin Jinghpaw Hkahku, northern Kachin State and Kukawng valley, collected in the 1920s. The dragon motif, one of the most difficult patterns to weave, represents Baren Num Raw in Jinghpaw mythology, and is a symbol of duwa (chief) status. Royal Pavilion, Libraries & Museums (Brighton).
The draggon is a similar draggon to the one on Bill's bag.

As far as the book is concerned there are lots of copies on Amazon UK's site at a variety of prices both direct and via other sellers.

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:48 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Further to my earlier post I have now received permission from the editor of the Oxford Asian Textile Group newsletter and the author to publish in full the review of 'Textiles from Burma: Featuring the James Henry Green Collection' Edited by Elizabeth Dell and Sandra Dudley. The author of the review is Gloria Dudley-Owen.

Ms Dudley-Owen now lives in Guernsey, but previously lived for fifteen years in Singapore where she worked as a guide in the Singapore Museum and was also co-founder of the Friends of Textiles. Her interest in Burmese textiles arose from an extended visit she made to Burma in 1999, after which she studied Burmese textiles at FOM Singapore. She has been a member of O.A.T.G. for a few years.

My thanks to both OATG and Gloria Dudley-Owen.


Attachments:
File comment: Review by Gloria Dudley-Owen of 'Textiles from Burma: Featuring the James hengry Green Collection' edited by Elizabeth Dell and Sandra Dudley.
burmese_textiles.doc [62.5 KiB]
Downloaded 1027 times

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Last edited by Pamela on Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group