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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:10 pm 
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Ann Goodman has sent me some photos of an embroidered blanket and a question for the forum:

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Here is a question for The Forum. I am attaching a JPEG of a blanket that I identify as Gejia, but I have not found the phoenix and flower pattern in the books that I have checked. Is this pattern Gejia?


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05w.jpg
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Gejiablanketdet1w.jpg
Gejiablanketdet1w.jpg [ 86.88 KiB | Viewed 15088 times ]
GejiaBlanketdet2w.jpg
GejiaBlanketdet2w.jpg [ 89.75 KiB | Viewed 15088 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:40 am 
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Hi Pamela and Ann

that's a lovely embroidered blanket.

I have a baby carrier panel that includes the same motif, though of somewhat more recent vintage. I was told that it is Miao, and comes from Guizhou, Tai Jiang County, Ge Yi township. 贵州台江县革一

I think this is probably right because the designs, the tight embroidery running the same direction and the spacing of the forms is very similar to published examples of embroidery from Tai Jiang and nearby Huang Ping. The shape of my panel is also similar to published examples from this area.

Chris


Attachments:
File comment: baby carrier, minus the carrying straps
CET1-1t.jpg
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File comment: detail of central area
CET1detail1.jpg
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File comment: detail of the phoenix design
CET1detail2.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:49 am 
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Here is a published example of a similar baby carrier, from "Miao Textiles from China" by Gina Corrigan (University of Washington Press, Seattle and British Museum Press, 2001, ISBN 0-295-98137-7). The embroidered designs are different but I think this is similar enough in style and technique to make the connection with my baby carrier and hence with Ann's textile.


Attachments:
File comment: detail of baby carrier
TaijiangBabyCarrierDetail.jpg
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File comment: baby carrier from Tai Jiang county, Guizhou
TaijiangBabyCarrier.jpg
TaijiangBabyCarrier.jpg [ 75 KiB | Viewed 15059 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Hi Chris

Thanks for your comments and photos of your (very nice) baby carrier.

I too think that the carrier is probably Miao and I said as much to Martin Conlan when I emailed him last night to have a look at the post. He has come back with:

Quote:
Hello, Pamela I feel the same as you on this one.

However I've learnt over the years to not to be too definite when there is an element of doubt.

I have not seen a blanket like it, though I would say from the style of embroidery it was Miao, maybe from Shidong or a little further east.
Gejia embroidery patterns also tend to mimic their batik ones which these are unlike (although not always!).

Apologies,

Martin


There are echoes of embroidery teasing me when I look at Ann's blanket. I have had a look at one or two books to refresh my mind and it is the embroidery by the Miao of Huangping that are, I am pretty sure, haunting me - shapes and regularity. The angles of the hooks and curves in both Ann's piece and yours have considerable similarity with the regular and repeating embroidered designs out of Huangping. Huangping, Taijiang (and Shidong) are quite close together and, I guess, subject to influences from each other and all superb embroiderers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:19 pm 
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Hi Ann, Pamela and Chris

Ann, you are correct to think that this baby blanket is Gejia (of sorts). As far as I’m aware, the Gejia never produced embroidered baby blankets. The example you have looks like a modern piece produced for the textile trade using pale coloured threads to give the impression of fading from washing and age. Generally, pieces that are made on a new looking black base cloth and especially have a (2+cm) black edge are likely to be modern pieces (made within the last 5 years or so).

The Gejia did produce embroidered baby carriers with the phoenix motif, although it is very rarely seen. I have come across 2 such carriers, one being the carrier below.

When I bought this baby carrier in 2004, the dealer friend gave me some basic information about it, but it wasn’t enough for such an old and interesting piece, so I asked her to go back to the seller to find out more. The information I have is that she bought the carrier from Li nai nai (Grandmother Li), a 60+ year old woman who said it was her maternal grandmother’s baby carrier and was now 5 generations old. Li nai nai was the youngest daughter in the family, her eldest sister being over 80 years old (suggesting the carrier is over 100 years old!).

The subsequent story relating to the carrier is that Li nai nai moved from her family home in Langdong, Huangping County when she married into a Ge family living in Wangan, Duyun, where her husband was a police officer. They had a son who became a driver, but at the age of 25 (2002?), he had a serious accident and spent 2 years in hospital, where he eventually died. The family had to pay over 100,000 RMB for his medical treatment, money which came from their family savings and borrowings from relatives and friends. The family’s life became very hard because of this massive cost. In despair, Li nai nai went back to her family home in Huangping and told her sad story in the hope of finding someone who would help her sell the family’s prized baby carrier. She was put in touch with my dealer friend, who agreed to sell the carrier for her. When my dealer friend went to pick it up and pay for it, the old lady was very upset at the thought of having to part with it, being a connection with her mother and grandmother. In order to keep a small part of the heirloom (and that family connection), Li nai nai had cut off the 2 old batik ties to keep, but my dealer friend said it was very important to have the whole piece, and eventually agreed to buy the ties as a separate item.

The ties are interesting in their own right as they are an old style batik (I’m not sure what the pattern is, although it could be stylized butterflies (?)) with lengths of indigo cloth embroidered with white butterflies on the ends, finally ending with a row of what has been described to me as pomegranate headed butterflies.

Another Gejia dealer friend said she had seen this carrier, but didn’t buy it because it was not symmetrical or balanced. She did admit that the colours were still strong for such an old piece, having seemingly been washed only the one time.



Regarding Chris’s baby carrier, it looks like a cross between Gejia and Kaitang Miao (Geyi?) embroidery. It is unlikely to have been made by a Gejia, as the overall shape is not quite traditional Gejia and it has the typical Kaitang woven strip around the lower edge. It could have been made by a Huangping Miao woman who has a knowledge of both embroidery cultures! If you look at Bonding Via Baby Carriers, pages 109 & 110, there is an example of this Kaitang type of carrier. Also see Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou, page 380 for another example. (note that the phoenix tail is not usually as extravagant as that on Chris’s carrier).


Attachments:
File comment: Old Gejia baby carrier with pheonix pattern
Gejia baby carrier 1.1.jpg
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File comment: detail
Gejia baby carrier 1.2.jpg
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File comment: detail
Gejia baby carrier 1.3.jpg
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File comment: detail of pheonix
Gejia baby carrier 1.4.jpg
Gejia baby carrier 1.4.jpg [ 75.18 KiB | Viewed 15009 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:22 pm 
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Baby carrier ties


Attachments:
File comment: batik and embroidered ties from above baby carrier
Gejia baby carrier 1.5.jpg
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Gejia baby carrier 1.6.jpg
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File comment: embroidered end
Gejia baby carrier 1.7.jpg
Gejia baby carrier 1.7.jpg [ 70.07 KiB | Viewed 15003 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:27 am 
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Andrew's information and piece are fascinating. It's a good reminder that motifs are not a very good indicator of ethnic group since they are easily copied. It's something we've seen in other forum discussions - textiles from different but adjacent ethnic groups tend to look similar.

I think with the shape of the garment we are on safer ground. For example, even without Andrew's background information I don't think anyone would doubt that he has a Gejia baby carrier, the shape is quite characteristic even if the motifs are unusual. The other two baby carriers I posted look quite different in form (to me, at any rate) and so I think they are unlikely to be Gejia.

Thinking about it, if a girl from one ethnic group intermarries with another, I can imagine her bringing her own motifs with her, but conforming to the overall style of dress of her new home.

With Ann's textile we don't have much clue from the shape, so if we accept that both groups embroidered this motif then the ethnicity of the maker (Gejia or Miao) is still open to question I think.

Andrew's phoenix design from his baby carrier is clearly of the same kind as the preceeding two examples, but has a little bit more "room to breathe" than the ones from Ann's textile and mine. It looks slightly more bird-like as a result, and I notice that it is holding a flowering branch, which Han Chinese and Tibetan phoenix (what's the plural of "phoenix"?) sometimes do too. Now that I look at it, it has some of the same features as designs from Chinese silk, the serrated tail in particular. If I can find a photo I'll post an example for comparison...


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 Post subject: Plural of phoenix
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:36 am 
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Mmmm.... digressions :mrgreen:
Some have the plural of phoenix as phoenixes. However, my Jesuit schooling - will I ever forget amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant - would require the plural phoenices to remain true to its Latin origin (apologies to the ancient greeks whose φοῖνιξ (phoiniks) was subsumed by the feelings of Latin superiority .... although today phoiniks may possibly be found in some regional dialects :P ).
Latin aside there is the idea that there is only ever one phoenix (which in Western thought always took the masculine form in direct contradiction to the Eastern idea of the phoenix representing the female...) in existence at any one time thereby removing the need for a plural form hehe. The belief was that a new phoenix arose from the corpse of its male predecessor. The Greek historian, Herodotus, who recorded the mythical origin of the phoenix in his 'Histories' bluntly stated his disbelief in its existence. Thankfully the Miao were not influenced by him....


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:03 am 
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I like digressions too, and that one was wondrous, iain. truly a singular bird (ha!)

here is that silk textile. 17th-18thC, but late 19thC examples have the same features. Sometimes holds a twig, auspicious fruit or lingzhi fungus, as do cranes.


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File comment: 17th-18thC Chinese silk, detail
silkphoenix.jpg
silkphoenix.jpg [ 122.35 KiB | Viewed 14956 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Chris, Andrew

Thanks very much indeed for turning this into a very nice thread indeed! A phoenix (only one, of course, Iain) indeed! Yes, those tail feathers are visually arresting and stick in one's mind. I love them in the old Chinese silk

Quite given me some joy and I am sure that Ann will be interested in all that has come forth, sorry, risen up!

Best,

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Following reading all your helpful posts above Ann has been in touch:

Quote:
The thread engendered by my simple query on the baby blanket, whether or not Gejia is what The Textile Forum is all about….A wide-ranging discussion from a group of committed enthusiasts with much information to offer.

I am indebted to Andrew and Chris for their photos, each with proper phoenix (es?) and accompanying infill. To address Andrew's comment that the blanket may well be made for the textile trade within the past five years, I will say that I purchased this blanket in 2005 and sent it for conservation. The conservation report states, “ The blanket combines gray, blue, purple and bronze-colored embroidery floss on a blue-gray plain woven ground fabric. The blanket is in good condition overall. After viewing the reverse of the piece, it appears that many of the colors of the embroidery floss have faded [from the original gray, blue, purple and bronze-colored silk floss to a more uniform gold/bronze]. In addition, a line of discoloration follows the horizontal fold across the textile.” When I picked up the blanket the conservationist mentioned that the blanket was extremely dirty and required much more vacuuming than the pieces that she usually handles. I do not think that this blanket was made within the past five years. Judging from the amount of fading present I would suggest a mid-20th century date.

The extraordinary similarity of design motifs of the phoenix and floral infill in my blanket, Chris's Huangping BC and Andrew's GeJia BC raise further questions of historical relevance. I am now thinking about the correlation of design motifs with language and genetic markers used in population genetics. Eventually I intend to write something about this and send it to The Textile Forum or an appropriate journal, e.g. the new journal, Textiles Asia. But for now, and not spending too much time I want to add to this very informative Textile Forum thread by asking yet another question. Do the Gejia and Miao languages and historical origins differ considerably? If they share the same villages peacefully, is there much intermarriage? I think that Chris's rumination about a girl from one ethnic group marrying into another is right on, and I wonder about the genetic admixtures within these areas. Here I'm thinking particularly about the Raojia now being classified as part of the Yao ethnic group. And this thought line brings up questions about how accurately one can distinguish one group from another by relying on the clothing. I will continue to think about this and I hope to come up with something better formulated, time permitting.

Stimulated by Chris' Huangping Gejia conflation, I would like to post another baby carrier that I bought about five years ago which I thought was a Dong carrier, but the shape and borders of the carrier are classic Huangping-style Miao. The carrier panel is a purple cotton warp and weft with beige cotton discontinuous supplemental weft forming the design. The outer borders are silk. The fragment of the carrier straps still attached to the central panel is brilliant indigo-blue cotton. These indigo straps had been hidden by a newer black 3” border that the conservator and I agreed to remove. This permitted the T-portion of the BC to be unfolded and extended. The conserver has noted, “ It is not strictly correct to refer to the panel as 'brocade'. The term supplemental refers to the fact that the design is woven in as an added weft during the weaving process, but the purple portion of the cloth has a whole structure of its own, independent of the beige design. A discontinuous weft is introduced by the weave only in the areas where decoration is wanted. It stops and starts, rather than continues from selvedge to selvedge on the back of the cloth.” I have come across similar butterfly and bird motifs in textiles from south of the Chinese border, and I would welcome Susan Stem's input here. This BC is certainly aesthetically beautiful. I gasped when I first looked at it and have never ceased to marvel at the skill of the weaving. I welcome the combinations, but it is such a mixture, of styles, of techniques. Is this new synthesis what we might term “art” rather than “craft”?

Thanks to all, Andrew, Chris, Iain and Martin, and especially Pamela, for this thought-provoking excursion. Wouldn't it be nice if some day we could all meet face to face? Maybe Paris or London? A hard copy Textile Forum. And we all bring 5-10 pieces that we would like to share.
Ann


Attachments:
DongTaijiangw.jpg
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DongTiajiangdetw.jpg
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DongTaijiangborderw.jpg
DongTaijiangborderw.jpg [ 70.54 KiB | Viewed 14890 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Pamela and Ann, sorry for the slow response to the above, but I wanted to ask a few more people in Kaili and the Chong Xing area about embroidered Gejia baby blankets before sticking my head out too far. I visited Gejia land in July and asked everyone I could on the subject. Those that knew the Kaili textile market simply smiled and said “jiade” fake! The others said they thought such a thing was probably fake, as they had never seen or heard of one. This does not mean that they have never been made, as every society has its mavericks.

I would like to make a few observations regarding Ann’s piece based on my own experience:
a) The embroidery does not include any chain stitch. Most (all, in my experience) Gejia embroidery of this style would have chain stitch around certain of the motifs present on Ann’s piece (see attached photographs).
b) This style of Gejia embroidery would normally include some purple dye. I know that the conservator wrote that purple was present, but the bright aniline purple that is generally found on this style of Gejia embroidery appears to be quite difficult to wash clean away. My older pieces that show significant fading, the purple tends to be the one colour that stands out the brightest (see attached photos).
c) Older embroidery was not usually made on a blue/grey base cloth, but on a dark indigo tending towards black (made by adding red to the indigo dye).
d) If the piece had lost so much of its colour due to use, washing and fading, then I would expect to see some wear and tear evident in the embroidery threads, which I can’t see from Ann’s photographs.
e) Embroidery of this style generally has certain motifs made up of 2 differently coloured areas of plain stitch that interlock where they meet (see attached photos). On Ann’s detailed photos, some of these motifs are made using 3 lines of plain stitch that do not seem to interlock in the same way.

Certainly not conclusive. I would just like to add that the Chinese really are exceptionally good at deception, being able to produce genuine modern-day antiques bronzes, jades, teapots, Ming porcelain and even Tibetan Monasteries. For me, it isn’t difficult to believe that the good women of Guizhou are capable of producing old looking textiles, especially as I have one or three in my collection! I am aware that over the last 2 years, even veteran Gejia dealers in Kaili are finding themselves on the “cheated” end of the textile trade.

I was told an interesting story whilst in Kaili in July. A Huangping Miao dealer, who had arranged for women in the countryside to embroider Gejia baby carriers for her, asked a Gejia dealer friend to comment on a couple of newly delivered carriers. My friend was surprised at how good they were, using traditional patterns and correctly coloured silk threads. She asked whether the dealer was intending to sell these pieces at lower prices to reflect their lack of age or at a high price. The dealer said that of course she would sell them at a high price. My friend commented that they were new and should not be sold as genuine old Gejia pieces. The dealer replied that if she kept them for a few years, they would become genuine!!

That’s China! If a fifth of the world’s population tells you something is genuine, it is easy to see how “fakes” become accepted as genuine articles. It is quite possible that in a few years time, Kaili will have several genuine Gejia phoenix baby carriers similar to the one I posted earlier in this thread.


Attachments:
File comment: chain stitch around certain motifs
Chain-stitch-Gejia-sleeve-1b.jpg
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File comment: chain stitch around certain motifs
Chain-stitch-Gejia-baby-carrier-22n.jpg
Chain-stitch-Gejia-baby-carrier-22n.jpg [ 67.79 KiB | Viewed 13728 times ]
Ann's Gejia blanket.jpg
Ann's Gejia blanket.jpg [ 85.68 KiB | Viewed 13728 times ]
File comment: long-lasting purple dye on faded carrier
purple dye-Gejia baby carrier.jpg
purple dye-Gejia baby carrier.jpg [ 75.35 KiB | Viewed 13728 times ]
File comment: long-lasting purple dye on faded carrier
Purple dye-Gejia-baby-carrier-20b.jpg
Purple dye-Gejia-baby-carrier-20b.jpg [ 71.47 KiB | Viewed 13728 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:17 pm 
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more photos


Attachments:
File comment: wear on old faded embroidery
Wear-on-Gejia-baby-carrier.jpg
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File comment: wear on faded embroidery
Wear on Gejia-baby-carrier-14.jpg
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File comment: interlocking threads of different coloured embroidery
Gejia-baby-carrier-26.jpg
Gejia-baby-carrier-26.jpg [ 77.79 KiB | Viewed 13722 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:08 am 
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I have just returned to Taiwan from a quick 7 day trip to Kaili where I spent some time trying and nail down a few more pieces of information about Gejia textiles. Whilst there, a Gejia friend told me she had come across a machine embroidered Gejia baby carrier that looked very similar to one I’d asked her about some years ago, so she bought it at great expense to show me.

As you can see from the photos below, the basic design of this baby carrier is almost identical to the phoenix baby carrier I posted earlier on this thread. Admittedly it is not trying to pass itself off as an old hand embroidered carrier, but in future such items could be hand made using natural dyes and sold as 100 year old pieces. In the very last sentence I wrote on 26 October 2010, I said “It is quite possible that in a few years time, Kaili will have several ‘genuine’ phoenix baby carriers similar to the one I posted earlier in this thread.” And so here we are, phoenix baby carriers by the bucket load.

To all would be collectors of Chinese textiles, if you expect to find old pieces in Kaili or even in the countryside, be very cautious, as in my opinion you are more likely to find genuine old items in the USA or Europe than you are in China. A small private museum opened in Kaili this year, both of the old embroidered Gejia skirts they had on show together with a majia and an embroidered apron were certainly fake, at which point I gave up looking at the Gejia pieces and moved on to enjoy some genuinely good items from other minority groups.


Attachments:
File comment: Machine made Gejia baby carrier
Gejia-machine-made-baby-carrier 1c.jpg
Gejia-machine-made-baby-carrier 1c.jpg [ 126.08 KiB | Viewed 8940 times ]
File comment: Detail
Gejia-machine-made-baby-carrier 2c.jpg
Gejia-machine-made-baby-carrier 2c.jpg [ 149.04 KiB | Viewed 8940 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:48 pm 
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Andrew

Gosh!!! Very interesting indeed! Of course, these days with computerised sewing machines it is so easy to get them to copy patterns and then put them together and to repeat them! A good control of the machine. There has been no attempt to hand darn in the ends where the needle moves to a new pattern. You can clearly see the white threads crossing from motif to motif. Something to look out for when looking at a textile to check the technique. In one sense this machine-embroidered baby carrier is a perfectly logical way to move on - as long as there is no attempt to pass it off as hand-embroidered!

I enjoyed looking back through the thread. It was a nicely varied one with interesting tangential highlights! Many thanks for bringing it back to my attention! I always enjoy old threads being added to much later on - in this case over 5 years later! This is one of the real strengths of the forum :)

Many thanks for sharing with us!

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