tribaltextiles.info

It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:33 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: INDONESIAN IKAT WRAP
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Cheam, UK
Here is a textile I recently purchased from Ron Simpson in London. I am amazed by the transition from the flowing ikat to diamond design in the central panel,with no joins that I can see. It is probably a wrap[ or shawl, but am uncertain if it would have been worn by a man or a woman and in what way. I think it comes from one of the eastern Indonesian islands.
Any comments woiuld be very welcome.


Attachments:
p1010893a.jpg
p1010893a.jpg [ 88.48 KiB | Viewed 9850 times ]
P1010895a.jpg
P1010895a.jpg [ 69.76 KiB | Viewed 9850 times ]
P1010894a.jpg
P1010894a.jpg [ 67.48 KiB | Viewed 9850 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: warp ikat from Timor
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
Dear Siriol, Your textile is a man's hip wrap or shoulder cloth from the island of Timor (central West Indonesian Timor). I would say it is probably from the Niki Niki area of the Insana Dist. In Timor men usually wear three pieces of cloth. One as a hip wrap, one as a shoulder cloth, draped around the shoulders in various ways and often though not always a third, much smaller cloth, as a head wrap. Women wear sarongs sewn into a tubular form by joining the warp ends of a flat, rectangular piece of cloth.These pieces of cloth are usually rather narrow and 2-4 pieces are again joined at the selvedge to form a 2 or3 panel sarong. Any flat textiles with fringes are always for men.

Your textile seems to be dyed with chemical dyes which have been used in Timor for a long time. I would say it is probably not more than 20-30 years old and the floral like ikat patterns might possibly be of western influence. It is hard to tell from your photo if the central patterns (traditional Timorese designs) are embroidered (common in the Insana Dist.) or done in discontinuous supp. weft. Perhaps you could have a closer look and let us know. I would guess they are embroidered but my eyes haven't cleared up yet this morning so I can't see very well yet.

I wonder why Mr. Ron Simpson didn't give you at least some basic info with the textile you purchased from him. I don't know if it is proper or accepted to ask about price on the forum. If I am out of line please forgive me and tell me it is none of my business but I wonder how much you paid for this textile. People don't seem to talk about market price on the forum and I may be breaking a taboo by asking but I feel that such info would be very helpful to members interested in adding to their collections. If I have broken a taboo I hope Pamela will kindly advise me.

You have a lovely textile from Timor Siriol. Timor has more variety than almost any other island in Indonesia! Every village has its own traditional and unique style and patterns which serve to identify where the wearer is from and often his or her social rank. Much more research is needed on Timor and a book just on the textiles of Timor would be most welcome. I have a large collection of textiles from Timor which I collected on numerous trips to Timor in the 80s. I will try to get some of them photographed and post them on the forum in the coming year. Until then I hope this info will be of some help and interest to members.

Best Regards, MAC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: prices
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:46 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
MAC

I think that there may well be some price 'gossip' behind the scenes of the forum via email and private message. In general, the tenor of the forum is information not price. (That is why there is a separate section for 'Tribal textile shopping' and even here individual collectors mostly prefer to keep prices confidential). We have one or two dealers as direct members who kindly share from their store of accumulated information. I think this is only possible if pricing is generally kept off the forum. Of these I can think of one who publishes prices on their own website and another who does not.

As it happens Ron Simpson is not computer literate, unfortunately, but certainly some of us know him - he spends time in both London and Chiang Mai - and I wouldn't want him embarrassed. There are other dealers who feel it is not right to join (despite being nagged by me to do so(!)) and, again, I don't think it right to print the prices on the forum. I don't say 'never' as there may always be a time and a place especially with agreement.

There is also the situation where us obsessive collectors may be prepared to pay significant money to fuel our obsession but don't necessarily want to shout this to the world although we may be happy to do so privately.

Members are easily able to communicate with each other when logged in by clicking the email or message buttons appearing under our signatures on each post. BUT, please make sure you share all textile knowledge with all of us and don't keep that behind the scenes!

Best,

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Sorry about that!!!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
OOPS!! Sorry about that! Thanks for setting me straight! Should I delete that question out of my post? Apologies to Siriol and Ron Simpson if someone would pass it along to him. I'll try to watch my Ps and Qs in future. :oops: MAC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:54 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
MAC

No need to delete at all.

I am not trying to be a heavy handed policeman just want to allow us to chug along quietly 'encouraging' as much help and participation as possible.

Quite a lot of what I do in administering the forum is encouraging and nudging people behind the scenes to get them to share their knowledge and they need to feel comfortable doing so.

Don't worry about Ron. He has certainly been around enough to not mind your comment. He possibly even told Siriol something about the textile when she bought it but her question to us all was leaving it all wide open for comments. Having said that, I don't think that eastern Indonesia is necessarily one of the areas where Ron has more specialised knowledge.

In general my experience these days tends to be that many of the dealers who sell across a wide area tend not to know a lot of detail about them unless they spent some time in a particular area. Personally I find when I go to shows or visit dealers I am so often disappointed these days at the (low) level of knowledge. (That, of course, reflects on all that I have been learning over the years that the forum has been running.) I find that I often disagree with attribution. My instinct is to look, do my own assessment and then reach for the label (and jolly well hope there is one) as I like to test myself and also hope to learn more. Of course, so much better for the dealer to say nothing if he/she does not know rather than saying something which they know to be wrong.

It means that sometimes one can get a good bargain if the dealer does not realise what they have but personally I don't get much joy out of that. (I find my forum instinct is too strong to want to get to the truth of the matter with the dealer!) I like to share and learn when I buy my textiles. That is why there are only a couple of dealers that I buy much from - but I mustn't name any names here!

Just carry on MAC, being yourself, and if I think you are pushing the limits I will let you know and do a quiet edit!

best,

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:50 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Cheam, UK
Mac, Many thanks for your reply.
I did have some idea this textile might be from Timor, but wished to stimulate feedback, which in my experience is further encouraged by an atmosphere of mystery, -. And indeed Timorese textiles are something of a mystery to me. I would love to know more about these textiles, as there is, (as you have pointed out, )little literature on the subject. Regarding the technique used to create the centre panel, the reverse side looks as well finished as the side I photographed.. I must admit to being a bit of a beginner as far as technique is concerned, so I hope this might offer a clue.
Do you have any Timorese textiles similar to this? I would love to see more of these wraps as the reason I bought this piece was its unique combination of patterns, techniques and lovely colours

Also, any photos of these being worn. Are they still made and worn today?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Timorese man's wrap
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
Dear Siriol, Just spent an hour typing a post and then lost it all while trying to attach a photo! I knew I should have sent the text first and then fiddled with the photo in a seperate post!

Timor was a very traditional place when I was there 20-30 years ago. If you got out of the towns and off of the roads and walked the foot trails from village to village life was little changed from hundreds of years ago and most people wore traditional textiles. I doubt that much has changed in the villages even now. I am sure they still grow corn and weave textiles as there is very little outside contact.

Could you post a close-up of the patterns in the center of your cloth? If the designs are very regular and appear the same on both sides they are probably discontinuous supp. weft woven patterns. There is a very nice textile with woven patterns, from Soe, in the shopping section. You could also check out the Threads of Life web site. They have a lot of Timorese textiles.

On my numerous trips to Timor I walked the villages further east where the ikat dyeing technique is generally used. I have over a hundred textiles from Timor that I would love to share but don't have digital photos of them. I took a lot of photos in Timor but they are all negs. and slides so can't post them. I'm a real beginner on the computer and a newcomer in the digital age. I hope to get a digital camera and a computer that is in English in the near future and then will hopefully be able to post more of my textiles.

I'm going to post this text first this time and then try to post some photos of a sarong from the village of Sonok in the Ayotupas township which has woven patterns.

Best Regards, MAC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Woman's sarong Tais Bife
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
This sarong or Tais in Timorese is from the village of Sonok in the township of Ayotupas. It has been opened along the side seam and is no longer a tube so the whole cloth is visible. :( Sorry, something is wrong with My Pictures and when I click on open after selecting the photo it doesn't load.


Attachments:
File comment: How do I get the KB up closer to 500? In My Pictures they are near that but shrink when attached!
Ayotupas 2-5 up.jpg
Ayotupas 2-5 up.jpg [ 14.4 KiB | Viewed 9738 times ]
File comment: Would the photos be clearer if I could get the KB up? At least I think I got them to attach. Here goes!
Ayotupas 2-5 full.jpg
Ayotupas 2-5 full.jpg [ 7.34 KiB | Viewed 9738 times ]


Last edited by MAC on Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: trying again
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
I wonder if I got the size up any?

[I think that is about the best that we can do with these photos, MAC. It is not just Kb but the number of pixels/size (width etc) of the image that you first start with. I had a fidle and re-posted the 2 images and then deleted your very large - in width - images which were distorting how the post appears on the forum but not giving any better definition - Pamela]


Attachments:
ayotupas_2_5_up-.jpg
ayotupas_2_5_up-.jpg [ 94.53 KiB | Viewed 9731 times ]
ayotupas_2_5_full-.jpg
ayotupas_2_5_full-.jpg [ 62.1 KiB | Viewed 9731 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:16 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
I mention a book on West Timor textiles on this thread http://www.tribaltextiles.info/communit ... 2eb8b4dc47 the Threads of Life website http://threadsoflife.com/ is also mentioned for some information.

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Timor Textiles
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
Siriol, Here are a couple of other Timorese textiles that I have photos of.


Attachments:
File comment: Beti Futus Manu
_MG_0228 Timor Man's Ikat Cloth Birds.jpg
_MG_0228 Timor Man's Ikat Cloth Birds.jpg [ 450.49 KiB | Viewed 9491 times ]
File comment: Beti Futus Manu
_MG_0230 Timor Man's Ikat Cloth Birds.jpg
_MG_0230 Timor Man's Ikat Cloth Birds.jpg [ 448.06 KiB | Viewed 9491 times ]
File comment: Beti Futus Kaif ?
_MG_0219 Timor Man's Ikat Cloth.jpg
_MG_0219 Timor Man's Ikat Cloth.jpg [ 469.07 KiB | Viewed 9491 times ]
File comment: Beti Futus Kaif ?
For some reason the colors turned redish when I edited the photo. The true colors are like those of Siriol's cloth.

_MG_0221 Timor Ikat Man's Cloth Diamonds.jpg
_MG_0221 Timor Ikat Man's Cloth Diamonds.jpg [ 464.42 KiB | Viewed 9491 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Timorese Textile
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
This is a man's cloth from Ayotupas with ancestor figures.


Attachments:
_MG_0236 Timor, Ayotupas 2 Man's Ikat Cloth.jpg
_MG_0236 Timor, Ayotupas 2 Man's Ikat Cloth.jpg [ 259.46 KiB | Viewed 9486 times ]
_MG_0238 Timor, Ayotupas 2 Man's Ikat Cloth.jpg
_MG_0238 Timor, Ayotupas 2 Man's Ikat Cloth.jpg [ 489.71 KiB | Viewed 9486 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Timorese Textile
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:18 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Portugal
Very beautiful piece! Any idea about its age?

_________________
Peter ten Hoopen
www.ikat.us

PUSAKA COLLECTION: ONLINE MUSEUM OF TRADITIONAL INDONESIAN IKAT TEXTILES


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
Peter, The Ayotupas textiles were collected in the early 80s and were probably not more than 15 years old at that time so they are around 45 yrs. old now.

Ikat motifs are not very common in Ayotupas textiles. Buna, supplementary weft, and sotis, warp float, woven patterns are the norm.

I do have 2 or 3 sarongs with ikat bands in combination with the usual Buna and Sotis motifs. I bought them because they had ikat in them which was unusual. I also have about 10 male textiles, Beti, similar to the one posted, with all ikat patterns. These all came out together through a Chinese dealer who was working Ayotupas regularly at the time and then I never saw them again.

I have seen a lot of textiles from Ayotupas which were produced in the last 20 or 30 years but they have all had Buna and Sotis motifs. Textile production seems to be alive and well in Ayotupas and I have recently seen some very high quality, new textiles done with handspun thread and natural colors. However, I don't remember seeing anything with ikat patterns in the last 20 or 30 years.

Best regards, MAC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:18 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Portugal
Dear Mac,

You are certainly lucky to have been able to lay your hands on these marvelous cloths. I love the intricacy of the patterns, and the overall look, which is powerful and restrained at the same time.

I can well imagine the reason why you have not seen any Ayotupas cloths with decoration in ikat. It is such a time consuming technique. I suppose in these days people simply cannot afford to spend that much time on producing a piece of cloth. Also, perhaps the traditional significance is diminishing. You get more status now by having a motorbike, than by showing off a high class beti.

Kind regards,
Peter

_________________
Peter ten Hoopen
www.ikat.us

PUSAKA COLLECTION: ONLINE MUSEUM OF TRADITIONAL INDONESIAN IKAT TEXTILES


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group