tribaltextiles.info

It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:23 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 7:35 pm
Posts: 176
Location: east coast
Glad to oblige Pamela - actually I had composed a response with pictures but just as I was about to submit it, it vanished for some reason! Is there a way to save a draft as you go along?

Anyway, I am composing it again and I think I have kept to the 600 pix wide?

In reverse order:
1. a detail of the skull basket pattern

2. a second detail of the skull basket pattern

3. a detail of the firefly pattern. Note the thin vertical line "tail". It is the minimum width of 6 pairs of threads wide per tied bundle.

4. a close-up of the firefly showing the jagged "teeth" which are the minimum width bundles of 6 paired threads. Not always present. If you look carefully, you can find a bundle that is more than 6 pairs. It looks like 8 pairs of white threads. Perhaps Vernon can tell the reason for this irregularity?

5. the close-up in #4 with a ruler to show that there are (about) 10 bundles per inch and each bundle has 6 pairs of threads for 120 (about) threads per inch. As these are handspun cotton threads, it was a remarkable feat for the spinner.

Advanced weavers could tie the minimum of 6 (pairs) per bundle. To my knowledge all of the Iban and Ibanic weavers used this as a minimum. Except for the Mualang - an Ibanic people in Kalimantan. I have seen several pua and skirts with a minimum bundle of 4 pairs.

The fewer threads/tied bundle, the finer the detail can be but there are probably several reasons for a mime width of 6 pairs of threads per bundle.

A. The "tail" in #3 is the minimum 6 pairs per bundle. It will look smooth to the eye. If there were, say, 4 pairs/bundle (as sometimes in Mualang), the line would look zigzag. So any thinnest vertical line will look smooth with 6 but not 4.

B. If bundles were all 4 pairs wide, the time to tie the pattern would increase immensely. I do not know how long it took to tie the phenomenal firefly I showed but it must have been great.

C. There were probably the traditional reasons for 6 - "that is how it has always been done".

Please let me know if you want more. It beats doing my regular work.

-John

Pamela wrote:
John,

I wish we could see some details of these stunning pieces especially the 'Pua Sempuyong or "skull basket" pattern'. You could also post the images at 600 px wide (and I might turn a blind eye to a consequent increase in file size!)

Best,


Attachments:
File comment: 5. firefly closed showing the "teeth" with overlayed ruler.
firefly detail 3.jpg
firefly detail 3.jpg [ 81.92 KiB | Viewed 20675 times ]
File comment: 4. the jagged "teeth" which are the threads tied into minimum bundles of 6 pairs of threads and dyed white and black.
firefly detail 2.jpg
firefly detail 2.jpg [ 106.06 KiB | Viewed 20675 times ]
File comment: 3. firefly detail 1. Note the thin "tail" element
firefly detail 1.jpg
firefly detail 1.jpg [ 142.87 KiB | Viewed 20675 times ]
File comment: 2. detail of the skull basket pattern
sempuyong detail 3.jpg
sempuyong detail 3.jpg [ 175.87 KiB | Viewed 20675 times ]
File comment: 1. detail of the skull basket pattern
sempuyong detail 2.jpg
sempuyong detail 2.jpg [ 163.07 KiB | Viewed 20674 times ]

_________________
John
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pua Kumbu
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
Hi John and Pamela,

I shall respond to your enquiries very soon. However, as you both are privy to, I am at the moment quite distracted by another matter.

Nevertheless, I must make a correction to a horrible mistake I made in an earlier posting.

Mac asked when was Indai Gumbek's earliest piece made and I responded as posted. However, upon going through my papers, I discovered I had mixed up Indai Gumbek with her mother, Mengan! The account remains, the people misconstrued. It was Mengan who scooped up her pieces and ran down to the safety of the forest with her mother Mindu. I apologise for this grave oversight. I shall be more meticulous with my cross checking in future!

And now, I must return to the matter at hand. John and Pamela, I promise I shall respond soon to your questions. Sorry guys.

vernonkeditjolly wrote:
Quote:
Vernon, Welcome to the forum and congratulations! Your heritage, knowledge and textiles are precious jewels which you have graciously decided to share with humanity! We are all grateful. I am a textile collector and have a number of Iban textiles which I collected way up the Balle river in Sarawak, in Kuching, Singapore, Jakarta, Bali and even a number of pieces that I bought from Traude Gavin when she was in Tokyo in the early 80's. The information you have posted is most interesting and informative! Thank you so much! Straight from the horse's mouth as we say back home on the farm! What could be better! I have an endless number of questions that I would love to ask you. All of the textiles you have posted are pua. Were there no male textiles, loincloths or jackets, or kain kebat among your textile heritage? I am very interested in dating the availabilty and spread of chemical dyes. Would you or anyone else out there have any info. about when chemical dyes or chemically dyed mill threads became available to the Iban or any other ethnic groups in Asia? Some of your pua have yellow, green and black border stripes. Are these colors chemical? Are they mill thread or handspun? When was Indai Gumbek's earliest piece produced? What does Bali, in your favorite piece, Bali Bugau Kantu mean? I wonder when the Iban first came to live in Sarawak? In your profile you list some 21 generations which would amount to about 400 years! Quite an impressive genealogy! Most of us probably can't go back more than 4 or 5 generations. Lastly, I hope you will forgive me if I ask a personal question. Please disregard it and accept my apologies if I am being too curious. I wonder how and when your family came to migrate to Singapore and the suits and ties and batik sarongs and kabayas of your family photo. Thanks again for shareing your wonderful textiles and info. I hope you don't mind my many questions. Best regards, MAC

Hello Mac

I shall endaevour to respond to all your queries as best possible. :wink:

I have an endless number of questions that I would love to ask you. All of the textiles you have posted are pua. Were there no male textiles, loincloths or jackets, or kain kebat among your textile heritage?

The textiles I've posted so far in this forum and at my blog represent a fraction of our heirloom. I live in Kuala Lumpur and the pieces I have with me are my favourite pieces. The vast majority are back home in the family vault in Kuching. I shall be flying back on Thursday for work. I might be able to squeeze in a couple of hours to photograph more pieces to post here and at the blog.


I am very interested in dating the availabilty and spread of chemical dyes. Would you or anyone else out there have any info. about when chemical dyes or chemically dyed mill threads became available to the Iban or any other ethnic groups in Asia? Some of your pua have yellow, green and black border stripes. Are these colors chemical? Are they mill thread or handspun?

Commercial threads (mill spun and chemical colours) were available to us in the mid 1800s, maybe earlier. I can't give you an exact date but I do know that Indai Gumbek's earliest pieces were made of commercial yarns. These became available with the onset of trading with the chinese boat traders who brought with them indian and chinese yarns.


When was Indai Gumbek's earliest piece produced?

The Great Krakatoa Eruption of 1883 has become a device by which Iban fix dates. Like in the western calendar you have BC and AD. We have pre eruption and post eruption. The eruption and its devastating effects were felt even in the Saribas. According to family stories, on the day of the eruption when the earth shook and the skies turned black, Sendi (Indai Gumbek) and her mother Mengan scooped up their textiles and ran down the stairs to the safety of the jungle. They left everything behind except their textiles. Several hours later when it seemed safe to return home, both mother and daughter and the rest of the family and their retinue and slaves returned to the longhouse. In that story, we are specifically told that Sendi and her mother "scooped up their textiles". Therefore, I would hazard a guess that Sendi was already weaving before 1883. Which places her earliest textiles well in the Ancient Period.



What does Bali, in your favorite piece, Bali Bugau Kantu mean?

Bali is an honorific prefix, much like Sir or Lord. Which suggests that a pua kumbu is an entity, much like a person? Absolutely. :wink: Some commentators have suggested that the word Bali refers to another Iban word Bali' which means "to change" or "to transform". I have investigated this premise and found myself laughed at by my grandaunts. Bali is pronounced ba-lee while Bali' is pronounced ba-leeq and both mean absolutely different things. And definitely no reference whatsoever to the Indonesian Island we all love to holiday at.


I wonder when the Iban first came to live in Sarawak?

Iban migration is well documented. Google could help you there.


In your profile you list some 21 generations which would amount to about 400 years! Quite an impressive genealogy! Most of us probably can't go back more than 4 or 5 generations.

Saribas Iban take their bloodlines very seriously. And right up to my great-grandfather's generation, genealogies were remembered and passed down orally. My grandfather's generation started writing them down. Taking each generation to be about 25 years, and multiplying that by 25 generations, I guess I can trace my forebears back to the 1300s!


Lastly, I hope you will forgive me if I ask a personal question. Please disregard it and accept my apologies if I am being too curious. I wonder how and when your family came to migrate to Singapore and the suits and ties and batik sarongs and kabayas of your family photo.

When granddad married grandma, he brought her to Singapore where granddad worked in the British Civil Service until he retired just after the war. It was rare in those days for Iban to be educated and so those that were had a head start in job opportunities. Plus, every Iban of means would go on bejalai ('walkabout') to attain 'fame and fortune', as it were. My uncle, Dr. Peter Mulok Kedit, wrote his master's thesis on bejalai (which is available on the internet, I think.) All my aunts and uncle were born in Singapore. Dad was Singaporean up until he married mom and returned to Malaysia and became a Malaysian citizen. The suits and ties and sarongs were the de rigeur fashion for the day. Well, for most leading Saribas families, anyway. It's like how Paris Hilton would wear the latest Gucci and Prada today. Ceremonial loincloths and kain kebat were reserved for festivities when traditional costumes were the mode. On normal days, we went about our business in normal clothes; trousers and shirts and sarongs for the ladies. But I am being quite subjective as the Iban of the Saribas were the first Iban to materially afford western luxuries back in their day. Iban in other regions were still going about their business in simple loincloths and kain kebat.


Mac, my answers are quick answers. An academic would expect me to justify everything I say. Which I haven't. Maybe when I write a book, I'll have more time to do that. For now, you'll just have to take it from the horse's mouth, I guess. :wink:

Vernon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
Dear John,

Again, I shall respond paragraphically:


Wow Vernon on your Kelikut? Belumpong?. I have never seen a pua such as that. But because the design is symmetrical as having been folded and then tied, would it not have begun as a kelikut rather then belumpong? I ask for my instruction not in argument.

I am assuming that you are supposing that a Kelikut pattern is created by folding the warp to give a symmetrical design. That is not how the Saribas weave the Kelikut.

A Kelikut's first criteria is to have bands width-wise all along the main body. The second criteria is that the end accompaniments should not be repeated. This means that the warp should not be folded to create a symmetrical pattern. In the case of your Kelikut, the warp has been folded to create a symmetrical pattern. Which begs the question; is this really a Kelikut?

A Belumpong's first criteria is to have sections logged off, with an empty space in the middle. Empty spaces can be created by virtue of a symmetrical folded warp or by intentionally leaving a space between logged sections. The sizes of the logged sections need not be equal.

When the pattern is of bands width-wise all along the main body created by folding the warp with the resulting space in the middle, then what do we have? A Kelikut or a Belumpong? Your pua is a prime example of a pattern that does not quite meet the second criteria of a Kelikut and yet isn't exactly a Belumpong either. This is another enigmatic cloth, which adds to its mystery and beauty!



I am posting two pua (what would the Iban plural of "pua"be? Pua pua ?).

There is no plural for pua. It is a generic term which has no quantifying value.



One, according to Trudy's book, is a "skull basket" or sempuong pattern. I think it is either from the Baleh region or a Baleh design if that makes sense? Comments?

You're correct, John. This is a pua from the northern territories. Probably even Batang Ai. I really shouldn't comment on a pattern and tradition I am not familiar with, John.



The other pua I think is called Buah Berasok or interlocking pattern. It has very fine and clear detail work. I have it cataloged as Saribas. Comments?


I am not sure if this is a Saribas cloth. The ara (selvedge) style looks suspiciously Skrang, a close neighbour of ours whose cloths are similar to ours except for a coarser execution and a preponderance for bigger motifs. Then again, many ancient Saribas cloths have similar styles. I need a closer inspection to comment properly. I like the anak buah side border motifs of human-like figures. The chocolate brown creates an elegant counterpoint to the main body of maroon.



If possible Vernon, and things I would like to know more about, would be the status of a piece and what ceremonies and such it would have been appropriate for. Or not appropriate for in case that is easier.

As you BEGIN TO WRITE YOUR BOOK I think it would be a help and education to other collectors and the world to know such information and I would encourage you to provide that before all such knowledge is lost.

I have read as much as I can find about the Iban and Ibanic peoples starting with the earliest sources. What has always puzzled me is the paucity of information published even by anthropologists regarding these weavings which as far as I can gather were practically central to Iban life. I wonder if Iban life and culture can even be really understood without knowledge such as yours. Lacking such knowledge, it is to me like discussing anatomy as way to understand a living human being but barely mentioning the heart and brain.

Now I, and I am sure other collectors, particularly if one visits dealers say in Kuching or Bali, have seen very many pua which artistically I consider very poor. Muddy, streaky brown color, very shaky ikat work details, uneven composition, etc. It is natural that not all weavers can be absolute masters of the art.

But if these, what I would call artistically lower quality pua, were in fact used in ceremonies, would they have the same "power" as what I think of as the masterpieces? In other words, what did the Iban really value in a pua?


To answer adequately all the questions you posed, I would need to write a book soon :-)


John, I attach a photograph of a Bali Kelikut woven according to the strict rules of the Saribas.



Vernon


Attachments:
File comment: A modern Bali Kelikut where both end accompaniments are of different patterns.
DSC03072.JPG
DSC03072.JPG [ 67.78 KiB | Viewed 20671 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
john wrote:
Glad to oblige Pamela - actually I had composed a response with pictures but just as I was about to submit it, it vanished for some reason! Is there a way to save a draft as you go along?

Anyway, I am composing it again and I think I have kept to the 600 pix wide?

In reverse order:
1. a detail of the skull basket pattern

2. a second detail of the skull basket pattern

3. a detail of the firefly pattern. Note the thin vertical line "tail". It is the minimum width of 6 pairs of threads wide per tied bundle.

4. a close-up of the firefly showing the jagged "teeth" which are the minimum width bundles of 6 paired threads. Not always present. If you look carefully, you can find a bundle that is more than 6 pairs. It looks like 8 pairs of white threads. Perhaps Vernon can tell the reason for this irregularity?

5. the close-up in #4 with a ruler to show that there are (about) 10 bundles per inch and each bundle has 6 pairs of threads for 120 (about) threads per inch. As these are handspun cotton threads, it was a remarkable feat for the spinner.

Advanced weavers could tie the minimum of 6 (pairs) per bundle. To my knowledge all of the Iban and Ibanic weavers used this as a minimum. Except for the Mualang - an Ibanic people in Kalimantan. I have seen several pua and skirts with a minimum bundle of 4 pairs.

The fewer threads/tied bundle, the finer the detail can be but there are probably several reasons for a mime width of 6 pairs of threads per bundle.

A. The "tail" in #3 is the minimum 6 pairs per bundle. It will look smooth to the eye. If there were, say, 4 pairs/bundle (as sometimes in Mualang), the line would look zigzag. So any thinnest vertical line will look smooth with 6 but not 4.

B. If bundles were all 4 pairs wide, the time to tie the pattern would increase immensely. I do not know how long it took to tie the phenomenal firefly I showed but it must have been great.

C. There were probably the traditional reasons for 6 - "that is how it has always been done".

Please let me know if you want more. It beats doing my regular work.

-John

Pamela wrote:
John,

I wish we could see some details of these stunning pieces especially the 'Pua Sempuyong or "skull basket" pattern'. You could also post the images at 600 px wide (and I might turn a blind eye to a consequent increase in file size!)

Best,



Hi John,

The 'irregularity' you mentioned is basically the end point at where the bed of bundles of warp is tripled to create the warp's main body on the loop. Extra bundles occur as these points, sometimes an oversight of the weaver, sometimes intentional. It's all quite technical, and in the tradtition of weavers, all I can say is "that is how it has always been done" :-)

I am amazed and impressed by your depth of knowledge of our cloths. Thank you for your zeal, John. Enrich us more with your insights please.

Vernon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
Pamela wrote:
Vernon

Thank you so very much for sharing four of the Berinjan type pattern from your collection and linking in John's fine example so that I could set mine in context. So often one only see one example of a pattern and yet it enables one to view with fresh eyes when it is possible to compare and contrast a group. You mention that yours are from different periods. Can you be kind enough to indicate the different periods for me?

I think this is a time for opening multiple windows of this thread and then tiling the results to really get the most out of the comparison.

I would always be happy to participate/support any comparative study of the Berinjan type pattern.


Mark,

What a stunning pua you posted (your last above). Vernon's comment 'powerful, strong and almost majestic' really sums it up.

Thank you all, Mark, John and particularly Vernon, for this feast of wonderful textiles and what a testament to their creators. Wonderfully skilful technique but so much more as they are full of thoughts, dreams, culture and traditions of the weavers. We can feel this even when we may know little about that 'soul' incorporated in the weaving but how we appreciate it when you, Vernon, are able to unlock some of this meaning for us. Thank you also for making it clear that the meaning of the pua from other areas than the Saribas is as another language or tradition.




Hi Pamela

The first pua is from the Ancient Period, the second and third pua are from the Classical Period and the final pua is from the Old Period.


Vernon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:34 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Amsterdam
Vernon,

Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge of pua kumbu. I have visited Sarawak several times recently and ventured up the Rejang river twice to visit Iban longhouses. I look forward to your additions to the growing body of knowledge concerning Iban weaving.

My collection of pua is rather modest, mostly only two or possibly three generations old. However, due primarily to financial constraints and an interest in supplimentary weft pattern weaving as well as warp ikat, I have focused on collecting the smaller kain kebat and kain sungkit skirts.

This weekend I will take photos of several pua I have hanging in my flat. If you are interested in the kain I can post them as well.

Cheers!

_________________
Robert C. Clarke
Textile Collector and Researcher
International Hemp Association - Projects Manager
Society for Economic Botany - Life Member
Textile Society of America - Member


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: correction
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 7:35 pm
Posts: 176
Location: east coast
I apologize for having to do this, but I think I had better clarify what I wrote about the minimum bundle of (warp) threads that were bound or ikatted.
I said the minimum (but for an exception I mention and post here) was 6 pairs of thread when I should better have said 6 paired threads. That is, what may appear as a single warp thread is actually a pair of threads. And the minimum width bundle is therefore better described as 3 paired threads or 6 threads. This width of 3 pairs makes a balanced serrated width line along the warp direction as can be seen in the picture of the 'tail' that I posted. Gavin in her book states essentially that the minimum width bundle is 6 (pairs) and is called a 'kayu'. Linggi in her book, 'Ties That Bind' does not mention paired threads but indicates that the strings on the warp are separated into groups of three. Since inspection of ikat cloths from any of the Iban regions shows that a 'single' thread is always a pair of threads, Linggi is probably implicitly assuming paired threads.

Incidentally, a pair of threads does not seem to be a twisted pair but rather two threads strung side by side as the warp was being laid.

Now, I post a picture of a Mualang skirt and a detail which shows 'tails' of 2 pairs of threads each rather than the "minimum" 3 pairs. You can see that two pairs produces a zigzag appearance. By the way - notice that widths are worked in widths of 2, 4 as well as 6 (and more where necessary on the rest of the skirt).

I have also seen this minimum of 2 pairs on other Mualang skirts and on a Mualang pua'. It seems to be a not uncommon feature in Mualang ikats and I am using that as a Mualang diagnostic until disproved or obviated.

If the 'pairs' bundle exists in Iban cloths or other Kalimantan Ibanic weavings, I have not noticed it to date.

By the way notice that in the 'tail' detail from the 'firefly' pua' posted previously, there are about 3 or 4 wefts to a length of the smallest details. At about 20 wefts/inch, this means that the tie was about 3 or 4 mm long. Quite a feat.

I was going to use the name "kain kebat" for the Mualang skirt but I do not know if that is how the Mualang refer to it. ?

Thanks for your patience

-John


Attachments:
File comment: Mualang skirt. 49" x 29.5". Handspun cotton and perhaps native dyes.
mualang 2.jpg
mualang 2.jpg [ 162.64 KiB | Viewed 20632 times ]
File comment: "tail" from a Mualang skirt showing 2 pairs of threads.
tail.jpg
tail.jpg [ 180.47 KiB | Viewed 20632 times ]

_________________
John
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Questions for Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 248
Location: Japan
Vernon,

I must admit that as I read your many blogs and all the info that has recently been put on the forum, I am getting a bit confused. As I read I have a question and as I read further I have others and end up forgetting what my first Q was. I have pages of notes with different Q from different blogs and pages of the forum all in a jumble! What to do?

Let me start with the most burning Q. In one of your blogs there is a beautiful, poetic conversation between you as a child and Mama Tuai about the making of a pua. You ask her to teach you how to make a pua. Another of my notes says that Julia taught you how to ngebat (ikat the patterns?). In another place you state that Indai Nan was your main informant of the technical aspects of weaving and I presume dyeing. You state that she gave you her first pua to copy and keep as inheritance. From all of this I assume that you have ikated, dyed and woven at least one pua. The burning Q is how many textiles have you produced, do you still have them, have we seen any of them on your blogs or the forum and if not may we someday?

That may have been more than one Q! I suppose you still have Indai Nan's first pua. Is it on the net somewhere? Sure would love to see it and your copy of it someday!

Are you the first, and maybe the only male Iban to go on the woman's warpath?

Indai Nan's first pua was of 60 kayu. What does this mean?

What are janggau and engkalait that are used with engkudu?

What are tarum padi and akar? Tarum is the sanskrit word for the color indigo and akar maybe means root as it does in Indonesian? I thought only the leaves of the nila (indigo) plant produced the color. When I was up the Balleh past Kapit, in the early 80's, I didn't see any indigo growing around the longhouse. When I inquired about the blue dye I was taken into the jungle behind the longhouse and shown a ground creeping vine which was called RENGAT or RENGGAT. I was told that blue was produced from it. Do you know renggat? Do you have it in the Saribas?

Could you tell us what you know about the natural colors used by the Saribas Iban and what plants they come from? Pua are mostly red from morinda with touches and highlights of blue from indigo. I don't remember seeing yellow or green (indigo dyed lightly over a strong yellow) used in the ikat motifs of Iban textiles. Is the deep, rich burgundy color in some pua an overdye of light indigo over deep morinda? Was there a natural black perhaps from an iron mordant or the overdye of red, blue and yellow? Oh! I forgot engkerbai brown which I think I was told was from the bark of some tree. What are the names of the colors in jako Iban? The natural colors used in the ikat motifs of old Iban textiles are basically red and brown with touches of pure indigo and overdyes of red and indigo (blacks). This leads me to believe that the Iban only produced three natural colors, red, brown and blue and that the yellows, greens,oranges and blacks found in plain border stripes are chemical dyes.

The first chemical dye (mauve) was discovered by accident in 1856. This was followed by megenta in 1858-59, methyl violet in 61 and I think yellow in 62, all info from the net. Give them (the English, Germans and French) another 10 years to develop a stable range of colors and another 5 years to get them on to the major trade routes and by the mid to late 1870's chemically dyed threads and shortly after the chemical dyestuffs themselves would have been available to those close to the trade routes who wished to use them. Any textiles produced before 1870, then, would have to have been dyed with natural dyes.

I beg one last Q before I quit tonight. I wonder where the Iban originally lived before they came to Borneo? James Joshua says they came from the Middle East opposit the Holy Land of Mecca and claims that some of the longest tusut begin here. He says that from the Middle East they migrated to Sumatra and from there to the Kapus river system. It seems I read somewhere that they came from southern China and that seems more likely to me than the Middle East. I think that many Iban have facial features that look rather Chinese. People from the Middle East seem to have heavy beards and a lot of body hair while the Iban, the Han Chinese, the Eskimos and American Indians seem to have almost no need to shave and very little body hair. Do you, John or any one else out there have any thoughts on this?

It seems you are very busy at present so feel free to take your time in responding. I am not in any big hurry!

Best regards all, MAC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questions for Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
MAC wrote:
Vernon,

I must admit that as I read your many blogs and all the info that has recently been put on the forum, I am getting a bit confused. As I read I have a question and as I read further I have others and end up forgetting what my first Q was. I have pages of notes with different Q from different blogs and pages of the forum all in a jumble! What to do?

Let me start with the most burning Q. In one of your blogs there is a beautiful, poetic conversation between you as a child and Mama Tuai about the making of a pua. You ask her to teach you how to make a pua. Another of my notes says that Julia taught you how to ngebat (ikat the patterns?). In another place you state that Indai Nan was your main informant of the technical aspects of weaving and I presume dyeing. You state that she gave you her first pua to copy and keep as inheritance. From all of this I assume that you have ikated, dyed and woven at least one pua. The burning Q is how many textiles have you produced, do you still have them, have we seen any of them on your blogs or the forum and if not may we someday?

That may have been more than one Q! I suppose you still have Indai Nan's first pua. Is it on the net somewhere? Sure would love to see it and your copy of it someday!

Are you the first, and maybe the only male Iban to go on the woman's warpath?

Indai Nan's first pua was of 60 kayu. What does this mean?

What are janggau and engkalait that are used with engkudu?

What are tarum padi and akar? Tarum is the sanskrit word for the color indigo and akar maybe means root as it does in Indonesian? I thought only the leaves of the nila (indigo) plant produced the color. When I was up the Balleh past Kapit, in the early 80's, I didn't see any indigo growing around the longhouse. When I inquired about the blue dye I was taken into the jungle behind the longhouse and shown a ground creeping vine which was called RENGAT or RENGGAT. I was told that blue was produced from it. Do you know renggat? Do you have it in the Saribas?

Could you tell us what you know about the natural colors used by the Saribas Iban and what plants they come from? Pua are mostly red from morinda with touches and highlights of blue from indigo. I don't remember seeing yellow or green (indigo dyed lightly over a strong yellow) used in the ikat motifs of Iban textiles. Is the deep, rich burgundy color in some pua an overdye of light indigo over deep morinda? Was there a natural black perhaps from an iron mordant or the overdye of red, blue and yellow? Oh! I forgot engkerbai brown which I think I was told was from the bark of some tree. What are the names of the colors in jako Iban? The natural colors used in the ikat motifs of old Iban textiles are basically red and brown with touches of pure indigo and overdyes of red and indigo (blacks). This leads me to believe that the Iban only produced three natural colors, red, brown and blue and that the yellows, greens,oranges and blacks found in plain border stripes are chemical dyes.

The first chemical dye (mauve) was discovered by accident in 1856. This was followed by megenta in 1858-59, methyl violet in 61 and I think yellow in 62, all info from the net. Give them (the English, Germans and French) another 10 years to develop a stable range of colors and another 5 years to get them on to the major trade routes and by the mid to late 1870's chemically dyed threads and shortly after the chemical dyestuffs themselves would have been available to those close to the trade routes who wished to use them. Any textiles produced before 1870, then, would have to have been dyed with natural dyes.

I beg one last Q before I quit tonight. I wonder where the Iban originally lived before they came to Borneo? James Joshua says they came from the Middle East opposit the Holy Land of Mecca and claims that some of the longest tusut begin here. He says that from the Middle East they migrated to Sumatra and from there to the Kapus river system. It seems I read somewhere that they came from southern China and that seems more likely to me than the Middle East. I think that many Iban have facial features that look rather Chinese. People from the Middle East seem to have heavy beards and a lot of body hair while the Iban, the Han Chinese, the Eskimos and American Indians seem to have almost no need to shave and very little body hair. Do you, John or any one else out there have any thoughts on this?

It seems you are very busy at present so feel free to take your time in responding. I am not in any big hurry!

Best regards all, MAC


Hello Mac

I thought you had disappeared! It seems you've been busy beavering away reading my blog. I'll try to answer all your questions.


Let me start with the most burning Q. In one of your blogs there is a beautiful, poetic conversation between you as a child and Mama Tuai about the making of a pua. You ask her to teach you how to make a pua.


The entry you're referring to is this:

http://vernonkeditjolly.blogspot.com/2009/07/songs-of-my-foremothers.html

It's a fictional conversation between a granddaughter and her grandmother, not Mama Tuai and I. The purpose of the fictional conversation was to exemplify to my readers the real reason (raison d'etre) of the existence of the pua kumbu and why we Iban weave it.


Another of my notes says that Julia taught you how to ngebat (ikat the patterns?). In another place you state that Indai Nan was your main informant of the technical aspects of weaving and I presume dyeing.


Julia and Indai Nan are the same person. Her christened name was Julia but she was called Indai Nan (Nan's Mother) by her contemporaries. Iban do not always use a person's christened name but prefer to call them by their eldest child's name i.e. the mother of (child's name). Like Mama Tuai. She was known as Indai Gumbek (Gumbek was my Grandmother Inja, whose nickname was Gumbek) to her contemporaries although her christened name was Sendi. To confuse matters more, we in the family call her Mama Tuai which literally means Old Grandmother (to differentiate her from Mama or Grandmother who was my Dad's mother and my grandmother). I use the term christened because they were all baptised Anglicans.


You state that she gave you her first pua to copy and keep as inheritance. From all of this I assume that you have ikated, dyed and woven at least one pua. The burning Q is how many textiles have you produced, do you still have them, have we seen any of them on your blogs or the forum and if not may we someday?


Yes she did give me her first pua. Your burning question will have to burn for a bit longer, I'm afraid. Someday, maybe, we might see an answer :-)


That may have been more than one Q! I suppose you still have Indai Nan's first pua. Is it on the net somewhere? Sure would love to see it and your copy of it someday! Are you the first, and maybe the only male Iban to go on the woman's warpath? Indai Nan's first pua was of 60 kayu. What does this mean?


A photo of her first pua can be found here:
http://vernonkeditjolly.blogspot.com/2009/07/julia-indai-nan.html

The first male weaver is Nicholas Bryan from the Saratok on the outskirts of the Saribas. There is an article about him in Edric Ong's first publication, Pua: Iban Weavings of Sarawak.

60 kayu means it has 60 bundles of warp threads to a fold. Most weavers begin at 50 bundles, but aristocratic girls could begin at 60.


What are janggau and engkalait that are used with engkudu? What are tarum padi and akar? Tarum is the sanskrit word for the color indigo and akar maybe means root as it does in Indonesian? I thought only the leaves of the nila (indigo) plant produced the color. When I was up the Balleh past Kapit, in the early 80's, I didn't see any indigo growing around the longhouse. When I inquired about the blue dye I was taken into the jungle behind the longhouse and shown a ground creeping vine which was called RENGAT or RENGGAT. I was told that blue was produced from it. Do you know renggat? Do you have it in the Saribas? Could you tell us what you know about the natural colors used by the Saribas Iban and what plants they come from? Pua are mostly red from morinda with touches and highlights of blue from indigo. I don't remember seeing yellow or green (indigo dyed lightly over a strong yellow) used in the ikat motifs of Iban textiles. Is the deep, rich burgundy color in some pua an overdye of light indigo over deep morinda? Was there a natural black perhaps from an iron mordant or the overdye of red,blue and yellow? Oh! I forgot engkerbai brown which I think I was told was from the bark of some tree. What are the names of the colors in jako Iban? The natural colors used in the ikat motifs of old Iban textiles are basically red and brown with touches of pure indigo and overdyes of red and indigo (blacks). This leads me to believe that the Iban only produced three natural colors, red, brown and blue and that the yellows, greens,oranges and blacks found in plain border stripes are chemical dyes. The first chemical dye (mauve) was discovered by accident in 1856. This was followed by megenta in 1858-59, methyl violet in 61 and I think yellow in 62, all info from the net. Give them (the English, Germans and French) another 10 years to develop a stable range of colors and another 5 years to get them on to the major trade routes and by the mid to late 1870's chemically dyed threads and shortly after the chemical dyestuffs themselves would have been available to those close to the trade routes who wished to use them. Any textiles produced before 1870, then, would have to have been dyed with natural dyes.


Whoa! Hold your horses, Mac! I would love to answer all these questions but Gavin and Linggi have more than documented very comprehensive explanations of vegetable dyes and dye colours. A few of your questions also require "trade secret" answers, which I am hesitant to share for the moment. It was how my family succeeded in extracting and creating very brilliant, almost burgundy coloured morinda (engkudu).


I wonder where the Iban originally lived before they came to Borneo? James Joshua says they came from the Middle East opposit the Holy Land of Mecca and claims that some of the longest tusut begin here. He says that from the Middle East they migrated to Sumatra and from there to the Kapus river system. It seems I read somewhere that they came from southern China and that seems more likely to me than the Middle East. I think that many Iban have facial features that look rather Chinese. People from the Middle East seem to have heavy beards and a lot of body hair while the Iban, the Han Chinese, the Eskimos and American Indians seem to have almost no need to shave and very little body hair. Do you, John or any one else out there have any thoughts on this?



James Joshua is quoting from Benedict Sandin's book which opens with a fabulous tale of a very ancient Iban legend found in the oldest* genealogy of our family where we claim descent from the Middle East. How far this is true no one can verify or dispute. Like how some French aristocratic families claim descent from a bear. I too may claim descent from an eagle but I don't have beaks. (Though a granduncle has that hooked nose...hmmmm.) These things are best left in the annals of history and colourful legend.

However, anthropologists have written that the Iban originally came from Sumatra (one of the lost tribes of the Bataks? Sandra Niessen, any thoughts?) and travelled to Borneo.

Most Mongoloids (from East Asia to China) look alike, with subtle facial and body variations depending on specific regions, but generally, we look alike. I am not an anthropologist, so I really don't have a scientific answer for you. Perhaps John can help, or any other anthropologists reading this now who might have a scientific answer?

If you have more burning questions, fire away, Mac. I'll try my best to answer!


Regards,

Vernon


* Oldest genealogy as all leading families of the Saribas possess several genealogies and claim descent from either parent and their respective bloodlines. I think it's called cognatic descent in anthropological terms?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:18 am
Posts: 93
Ah, Vernon and Mac,

Thank you for this wonderful opportunity to chat away about a question that has been simmering away in the back of my mind for years.

While I can confirm having read in the literature that the Iban are considered, along with the Batak and other groups, to represent early populations, what is exciting is that the answer is perhaps to be found in weaving techniques.

The Andean archaeologist, Junius Bird, discovered this for the Andes area. As he put it, weaving techniques are conservative to change. The techniques that are borrowed from another group, or brought with a group when they migrate, remain, therefore, a kind of binding link. If the techniques are performed in the same way as they are performed by a neighbouring group, you can assume some kind of relationship between the two groups. And if the comparative sample is broad enough, and enough links are compared, perhaps you can come up with an hypothesis of how the techniques spread....and in this case, whether a group may have branched off from another group in the past.

This requires detailed information: indigenous terminology, precise descriptions, and even the recording of how the body performs the techniques. I always use the example of peeling the potato. There are those who do it towards themselves and those who do it away from themselves. You almost always learn it from your family and continue to do it that way. These are subtle clues to a person's origin. The same goes for how someone knits, etc. etc.

So, Vernon, if you decide to write about Iban weaving, even if the goal isn't a dry technical disquisition, if there was a complete description of the way the pua' is made, it would aid in answering MAC's question.

And if you're into film, anyway, and don't have the means at the moment to document everything with the pen and photo camera, a very skillful film can preserve the techniques for posterity, and for later analysis. But then it has to be a terrific film, like Ramseyer did for the double ikat in Tenganan, Bali.

We just don't have enough technical information from the archipelago to do detailed comparative analysis....but we can get cracking!

_________________
Sandra Niessen

www.bataktextiles.com
http://bataktextiles.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Pua kumbu questions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 248
Location: Japan
Vernon, Thanks for your quick reply! I don't have Gavin's or Linggi's books so you are my only source at present for info on dyes and the meanings of Iban words which you use in your blogs. I am not asking for family dyeing secrets but as I don't speak Iban I wanted to know the meanings of the words janggau, enkalite, tarum padi and akar that you use in your blog. Do you know the vine renggat and is it mentioned in their books? I wonder if I was given correct info or if they were pulling my leg.

Are there any maps of Borneo on the net? I am wondering just where the Saribas river system is. The Balleh is in the 7th div. I believe. They may have roads now as I think the forest has been pretty much cut but when I was up there the river was the only road. I didn't visit other div.as the textiles I saw in Kuching which were said to be from the 2nd div. all seemed to have bright chemical colors in the border stripes which kind of put me off. Does the Saribas drain to Kuching? Do you go to your family longhouse by boat or car?

Above Indai Nan's first pua it says ubong mansau seratus semilan. What does this mean? Indeed, all the different names for the same person is confusing! Have I got this right> Going back from you on the female side is Mary, Inja, Sendi, Mengan and Mindu. It was Mindu and Mengan who fled the longhouse with their textiles in 1883. Do you know when Sendi was born? What I am trying to figure out is just when her first pua was made. You count a generation as 25 years but I feel that people often used to marry before they were 20. I have an old school friend in the States who is 62 and has a greatgrandson going on three.

Is it handspun or mill thread has been a common question about pua of late. Did the Iban ever use the spinning wheel? With my Indonesian textiles I classify 3 types of thread: handspun (using a drop spindle and really handspun), wheelspun(using the spinning wheel but still done by hand and a foot to hold the spindle) and mill thread produced by a machine in a factory. On many islands in Indo. mill thread was used for the ikat patterns as it produced a clearer image. Handspun was used in the plain border stripes where there were no ikat motifs. Due to the difference in thickness of the two threads the plain stripes were single warped and the ikat motifs were double warped so as to maintain a balanced weave. Is this also the case with pua? It seems like Pamela's great, old pua had handspun in the ikat motifs (double warped) and perhaps chemical mill thread in the yellow border stripes (single warped). Iwill have to go back and check again to be sure.

Time for a break. Be back later tonight with more Q to fire at you.

Best regards, MAC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pua kumbu questions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
MAC wrote:
Vernon, Thanks for your quick reply! I don't have Gavin's or Linggi's books so you are my only source at present for info on dyes and the meanings of Iban words which you use in your blogs. I am not asking for family dyeing secrets but as I don't speak Iban I wanted to know the meanings of the words janggau, enkalite, tarum padi and akar that you use in your blog. Do you know the vine renggat and is it mentioned in their books? I wonder if I was given correct info or if they were pulling my leg.

Are there any maps of Borneo on the net? I am wondering just where the Saribas river system is. The Balleh is in the 7th div. I believe. They may have roads now as I think the forest has been pretty much cut but when I was up there the river was the only road. I didn't visit other div.as the textiles I saw in Kuching which were said to be from the 2nd div. all seemed to have bright chemical colors in the border stripes which kind of put me off. Does the Saribas drain to Kuching? Do you go to your family longhouse by boat or car?

Above Indai Nan's first pua it says ubong mansau seratus semilan. What does this mean? Indeed, all the different names for the same person is confusing! Have I got this right> Going back from you on the female side is Mary, Inja, Sendi, Mengan and Mindu. It was Mindu and Mengan who fled the longhouse with their textiles in 1883. Do you know when Sendi was born? What I am trying to figure out is just when her first pua was made. You count a generation as 25 years but I feel that people often used to marry before they were 20. I have an old school friend in the States who is 62 and has a greatgrandson going on three.

Is it handspun or mill thread has been a common question about pua of late. Did the Iban ever use the spinning wheel? With my Indonesian textiles I classify 3 types of thread: handspun (using a drop spindle and really handspun), wheelspun(using the spinning wheel but still done by hand and a foot to hold the spindle) and mill thread produced by a machine in a factory. On many islands in Indo. mill thread was used for the ikat patterns as it produced a clearer image. Handspun was used in the plain border stripes where there were no ikat motifs. Due to the difference in thickness of the two threads the plain stripes were single warped and the ikat motifs were double warped so as to maintain a balanced weave. Is this also the case with pua? It seems like Pamela's great, old pua had handspun in the ikat motifs (double warped) and perhaps chemical mill thread in the yellow border stripes (single warped). Iwill have to go back and check again to be sure.

Time for a break. Be back later tonight with more Q to fire at you.

Best regards, MAC



Hi Mac

I strongly recommend Linggi's book for a very good explanation and description of the dyeing process. She even shows pictures of the roots and leaves we use. You can buy it online, google 'Tun Jugah Foundation' and then go to 'publications'. It really is authoritative as far as dyes and techniques are concerned.


I am not asking for family dyeing secrets but as I don't speak Iban I wanted to know the meanings of the words janggau, enkalite, tarum padi and akar that you use in your blog. Do you know the vine renggat and is it mentioned in their books? I wonder if I was given correct info or if they were pulling my leg.

These words are names of plants from which we extract dyes. Tarum padi and tarum akar are the two types of indigo we use. One is a plant and the other a vine (I don't know their scientific latin names). Renggat is just another name for tarum, but more commonly spoken in the northern regions. Janggau is a mordant used with engkudu (morinda).


Are there any maps of Borneo on the net? I am wondering just where the Saribas river system is. The Balleh is in the 7th div. I believe. They may have roads now as I think the forest has been pretty much cut but when I was up there the river was the only road. I didn't visit other div.as the textiles I saw in Kuching which were said to be from the 2nd div. all seemed to have bright chemical colors in the border stripes which kind of put me off. Does the Saribas drain to Kuching? Do you go to your family longhouse by boat or car?

Google Saribas or images Saribas. We drive on tarred roads to our longhouse, Stambak. Boats have been rarely used since the 70s. Chemical colours and commercial threads in the border stripes were proudly used by Saribas weavers as a flamboyant sign of their material wealth. It meant they had the means to trade with Chinese traders and buy 'modern' threads when other Ibans in the interior were still making their own from home grown cotton.


Above Indai Nan's first pua it says ubong mansau seratus semilan. What does this mean? Indeed, all the different names for the same person is confusing! Have I got this right> Going back from you on the female side is Mary, Inja, Sendi, Mengan and Mindu. It was Mindu and Mengan who fled the longhouse with their textiles in 1883. Do you know when Sendi was born? What I am trying to figure out is just when her first pua was made. You count a generation as 25 years but I feel that people often used to marry before they were 20. I have an old school friend in the States who is 62 and has a greatgrandson going on three.

The ubong mansau seratus semilan is a pua woven by Sendi Indai Gumbek (my Mama Tuai). My personal favourite. It appears permanently at the top of my blog, like a profile picture. It's not by Julia Indai Nan. (I've attached a picture of Julia Indai Nan's first pua.)

I trace my descent from my father who is the eldest son of Inja who was the eldest daughter of Sendi who was the eldest daughter of Mengan who was the eldest daughter of Mindu.

Sendi was born in 1892. To read more about Sendi, look at Edric Ong's first book, PUA : Iban Weavings of Sarawak pages 33 to 36. On page 9 of the same book, there are two pictures of how we use our pua kumbu (specifically at the 'wake' of Sendi) for rituals.


Did the Iban ever use the spinning wheel?

No. Handspun threads were really handspun, but very finely done. Painstaking and laborious.


Keep 'em comin', Mac!


Attachments:
File comment: Buah Rusa (The Deer) by master weaver Julia Indai Nan Tau Muntang Tau Nengkenang, Pelandok, Paku, Saribas. Circa 1920s. Her first pua, 60 kayu.
buah rusa.JPG
buah rusa.JPG [ 72.63 KiB | Viewed 20493 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
Dear all

I've attached two pictures of two different pua made by the same hand.

The first one is a first piece woven when she was a young girl. The simple and innocuous design of the protector deer.

The second one is her last piece, woven in her 40s, the prestigious Mulong Merangau of the tiang genre. It displays all the correct requirements of a Saribas blanket: one kelemebai, one sengkalan, complementary edge motifs, appropriate side bands, and the telling white outermost selvedge which denotes her status as an acknowledged master weaver who has completed the weaving cycle of nine blankets. I say acknowledged because unless her community recognises her as one, a weaver should not have the audacity to display such ostentatious signs. Acknowledgement is seen in how the community treats her. A master weaver not only weaves well but is always invited by her neighbours to bathe their newborn child, dress a bride, chant the prayers at rituals and in the old days, receive trophy heads brought back to the longhouse by the menfolk. She is, to all intents and purposes, the first lady of the community. There can be several master weavers in a community but by convention, the most noble and oldest of them has the honour of being first lady. (Example: The oldest master weaver who comes from a lesser family would defer to a younger master weaver of older blood.)

I've shown these two pua kumbu to demonstrate how a weaver's skills in the kebat (tyeing) and tenun (control of tension of the backstrap) develops. Her first piece is unsteady but her final piece is flawless in execution.


Attachments:
File comment: Buah Rusa (The Deer) by master weaver Julia Indai Nan Tau Muntang Tau Nengkenang, Pelandok, Paku, Saribas. Circa 1920s. Her first pua, 60 kayu.
buah rusa.JPG
buah rusa.JPG [ 72.63 KiB | Viewed 20475 times ]
File comment: The Mulong Merangau (The Weeping Palm) of the Gawai Burong by Julia Indai Nan Tau Muntang Tau Nengkebang, Pelandok, Paku, Saribas. Circa 1940s. Her last pua, 109 kayu.
pua016.jpg
pua016.jpg [ 272.82 KiB | Viewed 20475 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Kuching, Malaysia
And if you look very carefully, you'll see that the weaver has woven her name and the year of the making of the blanket onto the vertical side border stripes. An innovation for her times. Again, another ostentatious sign of material wealth; only aristocratic girls had the means to go to the mission schools for primary education in her day.


Attachments:
File comment: Close up: Julia 1937
pua016 (2).jpg
pua016 (2).jpg [ 22.68 KiB | Viewed 20473 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 7:35 pm
Posts: 176
Location: east coast
Hi Mac - if it helps, there are several dictionaries of Iban. I have one by the Sutlives. You can find it on the web by going to the Borneo Research Council site. I have parts of others from old writings such as by Ling Roth. For those interested, Ling Roth's two historic volumes on the natives of Sarawak can be downloaded free from the Google book site. They are treasures because antiquarian book sellers get several hundred ## for the existing copies and it is rare to find them in any library.

With your interest in weaving and looms, you can also download free from the Google site, Ling Roth's book on primitive looms.

And there are several other classic and long out of print books on Borneo, Sarawak, the classic classic - Russel's The Malay Archepelago, and such through Google. And all downloadable free.

They make wonderful and in some cases essential reading and may answer some of your questions. Unfortunately there was hardly anything written on the weavings themselves such as we collectors and others are dying to learn.

Hope this helps

-John

_________________
John


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group