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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:18 am
Posts: 53
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Hi Fuzzy,

Sorry it took me so long to post a reply.

Well I did say "mainly floral and foliate", not entirely :)
It's a museum cataloguing habit not to be taken too seriously.

I'm from Malaysia and by what I understand from friends who've studied Malay manuscripts, people in the Malay World (Indonesia included) had their own form of writing, Muslims would employ Jawi (Arabic script but in the Malay-Indonesian language), others probably used Sanskrit, while some, like the Bugis and Javanese had their very own scripts.

Malays only started using the Latin alphabet and numerals after it was introduced by Europeans in the 17th century. See these links:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/malay.htm
http://sea.lib.niu.edu/lang/indonesian.html

That's my two cents worth :)
Good luck with the quest!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:41 pm
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Location: London, UK
I have read with interest all the comments on this interesting piece. In my opionion this piece could possibly be from Flores from the Sikka region, it would be called a kelang suster (motif of the nuns). These are thought of as second order cloths woven with motifs influenced by the nuns as the weavers were tought in the missionary schools. Roy Hamilton writes about this in his book GIFT OF THE COTTON MAIDEN. Individual creativity can only be expressdd in these second-order cloths, as within the traditional textile system the weavers are constrained to produce cloth that is the exact replica of traditional pieces. The second-order cloth cannot enter the ceremonial exchange system. The number could just possibly a production number and nothing more.
Next week I will be visiting William Ingram at Threads of Life in Ubud, Bali, and will show him the image. Hopefully he can shed some light on this mistry piece. I will also be in Flores which might help find the source.
Lesley

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 Post subject: Blood and Ikat
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:15 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:33 pm
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Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
I have been in contact with "Fuzzy" some time ago and told her what I could about this textile. It has been mentioned, but to be clear the sarong is from the Sikka area of Flores Island. It is certainly made in the last quarter of the 20th century. There is no way this has been dyed with blood, human or otherwise, period, end of discussion. "Dying" with blood in any kind of ikat textile is just not practical.

There are some hand painted textiles that have used animal blood for small design work (Example: hunting vests "dhu" woven with ramie fiber and using animal blood and plant dye for motifs-Ndora, Flores Island. See: "Gift of the Cotton Maiden...", page 114-115). I have literally seen hundreds of similar textiles on the Island of Flores, in Sikka, as well as in the shops on Bali and this style/age is very common. I am not even sure the dyes are organic/natural.

I am not sure what the WE and K122 means, but I have seen plenty of Indonesia textiles, made in the later half of the 20th century that have incorporated letters and numbers. Usually, it identifies the weaver and I suspect that WE is the initials of the owner/weaver, but unclear what K122 means (perhaps the Kindergarten class they attended-Ha!). I also saw KISS, not K122 when looking at these letters and it would not surprise me if that was indeed the message: "WE KISS". Later textiles can have words/phrases in English (often without clearly understanding the intent) as well as Bahasa.

I could write a book on the "stories" I have from sellers of "antiques" in Indonesia and elsewhere in Asia. The person that gifted this textile may have not intended deception, but just passed on bad information or legend without really knowing what they were talking about. Again, a very common problem in Indonesia. Unfortunately, when someone hears misinformation the first time around, it is much harder to convince them otherwise, like breaking down religious dogma.

There is no mystery here.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:56 am
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Location: Canberra, Australia
I heartily concur with this latest post. Now, take a mirror, hold it in front of the screen and look at the image upside down. Too much like textile yoga? Then write the inscription on a piece of paper as it appears on the photo making sure you can read it from both sides, fold it down like the sarong would be folded and then "KISS ME".Cheers, Jim.


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 Post subject: Kiss Me You Fool!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:24 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
Ha! Thank you Jim, for pulling that one out. I forgot that sometime these letters are mirrored, reversed, or inverted in some way (in part or whole) when transferred to the textile. It is so obvious now. Probably the weaver saw it on a T-Shirt or some kind of Japanese-"Engrish" anime sticker or more likely one of those little candy Sweethearts! Good job!

Where is the kissy lips emoticon when you really need it!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
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Location: Canterbury, UK
...Mark, here they are...


Attachments:
File comment: kissing lips
lips.gif
lips.gif [ 178 Bytes | Viewed 9754 times ]

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Pamela

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:39 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
:D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:29 am 
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:47 am
Posts: 47
Location: Bali Indonesia
I know that blood from domesticated animals is used in dyes (rarely). I don't believe that human blood has ever been used for dyestuff, and the textile in the photos was absolutely not dyed with human or any other blood.


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 Post subject: blood and dyes
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:50 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:18 am
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Greetings all,

I would like to join in on this bloody discussion. It is certainly a thriller!

The Karo Batak use blood in combination with indigo dye. It is, as Pamela noted, to give that sheen to the textiles. They don't dye their ikat in it (as far as I know), only their plangi textiles made from commercial cotton. What they need from the blood is the iron. Certain kinds of mud can also be used in combination with indigo dye, presumably mud with iron content. Apparently it makes the dye darker, and a dark blue is admired.

The blood used is buffalo blood.

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 Post subject: blood- not in a sarong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:00 pm
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Location: Santa Fe NM
Someone was pulling your leg.

It is true that rumours have always existed that the red dye used in the Balinese aga village Tenganan on the double-ikat gerinseng, may have been mixed with blood, either chicken blood, a prize rooster's blood, or old women's blood, depending on the source of the information.

But this is only in Tenganan, only for the double-ikat gerinseng cloth (which is not a sarong, but a healing/power cloth), and again it is not confirmed so far as I know.

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 Post subject: blood in Karo textiles
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:11 am 
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Someone was pulling my leg? Well, I guess that someone is myself because I have seen the dyebaths with my own eyes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:54 am 
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Location: Canterbury, UK
...not sure but I think that Indokain was referring back to the original statement which started this thread of the use of human blood not your comment, Sandra, re bulls blood. I did do a double take myself when I read the post yesterday thinking the comment referred to you but then had another read and think and decided that it was not your leg on the line!

The use of buffalo blood is quite normal in other cultures - Miao in S W China for one - for a desired finish and colour so there would be a lot of people hopping around on one leg if it were deemed not to be true!

best,

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http://www.tribaltextiles.info
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:52 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:41 am
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Location: Bandung
Actually it's pretty simple logic. Looking at the "WE K122" I can conclude that it's a modern made sarong, probably made not in a long time before it's given as a gift to Fuzzy. The "WE K122" is usually a trade mark, or a brand, to identify the maker of this sarong. Usually "WE" refer to the maker's studio, and "K122" refer to the code of the person that made it. And, usually only modern, commercial weaving studio use this kind of "branding". Many modern time studio do this, and to be honest, it's quite irritating me personally.

And then, it's definitely not dyed with human blood entirely. Biologically (oops, i mean CHEMICALLY), blood is a very awful coloring material, it's easily faded away especially when the fabric is washed, even with plain water. So unless, you mix a little amount of blood with other coloring agent, just to reach some degree of color maybe, it's pretty inefficient and technically difficult to keep the color to stay there. Also, blood in a large amount, even if it's already dried, smells bad!!

I hope this could provide some additional information, althought it's already too late.

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--It's hard to be a half breed, especially if your father is partially Arab, Sunda, and Lampung, while your mother is half Toraja half Wajo, and you was born in Palembang, yet raised in Bangka Island, just to go to study for 8 years in Bandung--


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:01 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
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Location: Canterbury, UK
Thank you very much indeed. The most helpful and factual response that we have had on this thread!

Don't worry about the post being 'late'. Key to this forum is giving information and often the current members or browsers are not able to help with the question posted BUT, as I say so often to such people with questions, wait and your question may be answered...

thanks!

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:01 am
Posts: 246
Location: Japan
Maybe I shouldn't but I just can't resist! How do I get that kissy face emoticon you gave Mark into this post?
Ikat dyed patterns don't have a back or front and can be viewed from either side. If it says We K122 your flowers are upsidedown and are going to fall out of their vases! If you turn the sarong insideout, however , I think you will find that indeed it says Kiss ME and the flowers will be saved. I would then draw everyone's attention away from kissing and ask you to focus on the four squirrels with the bushy tails in the corners. Squirrels are a cryptogram for nuts! In America the Hershy Chocolate Co. makes a chocolate drop called kisses.
This sarong, rendered in the warp ikat dyeing technique, doesn't really look like Savu or the sarongs of the Sikka district of south central Flores. On the other hand, the layout is quite similar to some sarongs from the Lio District of the mountainous central area of Flores, from Wolowaru, near the famous colored lakes of Kelimutu, on to Joppu where there is a hospital run by Nuns, whom I suspect are fond of chocolate. I never lingered in Joppu where they used Wantex (chemical dyes) and were prone to wild Western influences in their motifs. No, I always walked on to Wolojita where I based and slept on Tomas Sengu's veranda. Ah, but that's another story!
The light blue stripes of this sarong are also typical of a motif called "Kelimara" meaning roughly The Beloved Hills in the Lio language. Therefore I would say "Elementary Watson elementary. This sarong is from the Joppu area of Flores. The motifs were copied from an empty tin of chocolates with nuts. It was pinched from the pantry of the hospital administered by nuns of fair girth, with a weakness for sweets and an unholy inclination towards dreams of KISS ME. The culprit, a weaver in their employ, gave the finished cloth to her daughter to sew into a tube. She, not knowing English, stiched it up in reverse. It was sold to a Chinese dealer from Kuta in Bali and purchased from his shop by the very person, there on holidays, who gifted it to Fuzzy.
Have none of the forum members heard of KISS ME chocolates with nuts?
Best Regards, MAC


Last edited by MAC on Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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