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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Hi Monique!
Yes, I also love these bibs and it seems that the passions for children's clothing is a common factor :D for us both. I struggle at times with the differentiation between embroidery and supplemental weaving of the small colour details used on textiles. The images below are also taken from a woven Dong bib collected in Tongdau County, Hunan Province. I show the front and the back of the same section which has a pair of rising cranes in opposition. In this case the red and cream colour details are actually embroidery and not supplemental weaving. This is clearly seen with the red embroidery actually "trapping" the cream silk threads in a couple of places. The cream silk thread can be seen to randomly travel across the back of the piece to its next destination before being eventually tied off close to the ground surface.
A general guide - by no means fool safe or conclusive - is that when the finished colour detail yarns at the back goes in various directons and are tied off close to the surface then it is probably embroidery. If there are long yarns loosely tied off and "floating" on the back and appearing unidirectional then it is probably supplemental weaving. This said, there are several pieces in my collection where the debate rages on - dependent sometimes on my own diminishing eyesight .... now where is that magnifying glass?


Attachments:
File comment: Embroidered red diamond detail.
Front view.
Dong bib.
Hunan Province, Tongdau County.

Dong bib front detail.jpg
Dong bib front detail.jpg [ 129.09 KiB | Viewed 9971 times ]
File comment: Embroidered red diamond detail. (Note knots closely tied off to the material ground).
Back view
Dong bib.
Hunan Province, Tongdau County.

Dong bib back detail.jpg
Dong bib back detail.jpg [ 122 KiB | Viewed 9970 times ]
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 Post subject: Dong baby carrier in use
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:30 am 
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Here is an image of a Dong baby carrier (shown on the left) similar to that under discussion here.
The figure heading translates loosely as: "Woven baby carrier for a Dong infant representing the strong ties between mother and son." Here the head cover is only partly drawn up - the head cover ties being held in the little boy's hands as they pass over his mother's shoulders. Note too his delightful little woven jacket.


Attachments:
File comment: Woven baby carrier for a Dong infant.
Minjian Zhijing. (1994). Hunan Fine Arts Publishing House. p.21. ISBN 7535607039.

Dong baby carrier.jpg
Dong baby carrier.jpg [ 41.24 KiB | Viewed 9926 times ]
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 Post subject: Dong infant jacket
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Just to round out the images in this thread I include a delightful Dong infant's jacket from Tongdau County.


Attachments:
Dong jacket front view.jpg
Dong jacket front view.jpg [ 67.62 KiB | Viewed 9579 times ]
Dong jacket back view.jpg
Dong jacket back view.jpg [ 69.6 KiB | Viewed 9579 times ]
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 Post subject: Dong baby hat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:08 am 
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I share a delightful minute Dong baby hat from the same area as the above baby carrier. The images attached here are actually larger than life size with the circumference being just 36cm!. The inside of the hat is lined with indigo dyed felt and trimmed with handwoven plant dyed hemp. Little cotton side tyes secure the hat.
Initially I thought this piece may be a reworked baby carrier "tail" piece. However, this does not seem to be the case as closer examination reveals that neither the warp nor the weft appears to be cut and is indeed intact throughtout the piece. The weaving is incredibly tight and finely done with color highlights being woven too. The four triangles, formed by expert folding, finish off the top to the accompaniment of a continuous circle of skirted(?) figures and extended wan characters. Truly a joy to behold!


Attachments:
File comment: Dong baby hat
Front view.
Continuous design of skirted figures and extended wan characters.
Hat.D.07.3

Front view.jpg
Front view.jpg [ 65.17 KiB | Viewed 9557 times ]
File comment: Dong baby hat
Top view
Hat.D.07.3

top view.jpg
top view.jpg [ 63.82 KiB | Viewed 9558 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:44 am 
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Iain

What a truly lovely little gem. Thank you SO much for sharing it with the forum. You can almost feel the aura of love surrounding it. I guess that, as it is so minute, it could only be worn by a very new baby and thus would only be used for a short time helping the piece to remain in such fine condition.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Today I was looking at some textiles and a little, well worn, woven jacket, very similar to Iain's above, popped into view and I had immediately a feeling of seeing an old friend. Of course, I had to bring it home with me.... It took me a bit of a hunt to find the post but was pretty sure that the original post had been by Iain so trawled through a list of his posts.

Interesting to see that my jacket opens in a different way to Iain's. Does this mean that one might be for a boy and the other for a girl? Mine has clearly been pieced together from scraps. I love the way that one (and only one) of the sleeve ends has been joined on. On the back there is even another square added into the sleeve band when clearly the length was not enough. The neck front has also been darted and joined - I think to hide a worn piece of fabric, not to shape. The jacket is so similar in the weave to Iain's that perhaps it is also a "Dong infant's jacket from Tongdau County" Hunan Province. How excellent to have a tentative ID - just what the forum is all about! The jacket has some additional colour details which I think are added in embroidery to the weaving as Iain explains in his post on the top of page 2 of the thread.


Attachments:
File comment: front of child's jacket
IMGP6426w.jpg
IMGP6426w.jpg [ 68.13 KiB | Viewed 9291 times ]
File comment: back of child's jacket
IMGP6428w.jpg
IMGP6428w.jpg [ 67.44 KiB | Viewed 9290 times ]
File comment: detail of sleeve front showing additional fabric joined on.
IMGP6427w.jpg
IMGP6427w.jpg [ 73.75 KiB | Viewed 9290 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:55 pm 
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I post a black and white photo from the same book (page 34) that Iain refers to above (Minjian Zhijing. (1994). Hunan Fine Arts Publishing House. ISBN 7535607039) showing two children looking very fat in all their layers and both wearing coats similar to mine and Iain's. I do like to see the textiles being worn as, to me, they are very much clothing and not merely (!) textile techniques or even art.

Difficult (for me) to see but I think the child on the right is a girl and the coat has a side fastening. The child on the left could be a boy and I think the fastening is a centre fastening.


Attachments:
File comment: Minjian Zhijing. (1994). Hunan Fine Arts Publishing House. p.34. ISBN 7535607039.
p34-weavingbk.jpg
p34-weavingbk.jpg [ 52.12 KiB | Viewed 9274 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:55 pm 
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Following my posts about my little jacket I have received some helpful comments about the techniques used in creating the bib that Iain has posted and the little jacket that I posted. These have been made in the spirit of helping us to understand the textiles and their techniques and not to criticise or correct. As you know, I have consulted weaving expert, Marla Mallett, several times in the past when I have needed help with understanding weaving techniques and I was pleased and grateful to receive her comments following her sight of the thread.

I post images of two details from my jacket which she has looked at carefully, back and front, to confirm the fully woven technique.

Re Iain's Dong bib she said
Quote:
"it is definitely ALL brocaded. There is NO embroidery on the piece. All of the basic blue is continuous brocading, from selvage to selvage, and the other colors—the red and ivory--are discontinuous brocading. The TURNS are brocade turns, and the SEQUENCES are brocade sequences, absolutely proper as they move from row to row. An embroiderer would be mad to attempt to simulate those sequences and turns. That would be incredibly inefficient! The presence of knots is not of significance, as occasional brocade weavers (and even sometimes tapestry weavers) start discontinuous sections with knotted wefts. Occasionally we see embroidered copies of brocade designs, but these pieces are not examples of that."
On looking at the detail photos of my jacket the comment was:
Quote:
"Yes, your piece is also all brocading—a combination of continuous and discontinuous supplementary weft weave. We do sometimes find embroidery that imitates similar brocade designs, but the work is quite different in the sequences, and they are quite easy to identify. It is easier to see the details more clearly in Iain’s bib, but there is no question with either his piece or yours about the technique used. This confusion occurs also in MOST written material covering Middle Eastern tribal weaving—especially in German publications, where brocaded pieces and details are routinely identified as embroidered..."

I always find it so very difficult to be certain whether something is fully woven or whether there is additional embroidery. I think that there is no substitute for direct experience of weaving when it comes to the making this differentiation.


Attachments:
File comment: front of detail 1 of weaving on Dong baby's jacket
IMGP6429w.jpg
IMGP6429w.jpg [ 77.21 KiB | Viewed 9195 times ]
File comment: back of detail 1 of weaving on Dong baby's jacket
IMGP6430w.jpg
IMGP6430w.jpg [ 68.96 KiB | Viewed 9195 times ]
File comment: front of detail 2 of weaving on Dong baby's jacket
IMGP6432w.jpg
IMGP6432w.jpg [ 64.33 KiB | Viewed 9195 times ]
File comment: back of detail 2 of weaving on Dong baby's jacket
IMGP6431w.jpg
IMGP6431w.jpg [ 62.83 KiB | Viewed 9195 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:43 pm 
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I have found another Dong baby's jacket which I thought that I would share with you. This one in two colours - indigo and white. It is machine sewn and is, I feel, a later one. There are some nice motifs in the strong zig-zag bands which sort of form a frame down the sides of both front and back. I could almost imagine that there are woven figures of animals down these zig-zags (or figures on a down-hill ski slope race!) Interesting that these front and back sections are fresher and show less wear. Looking at the two photos of mothers and babies on page 21 of MINJIAN ZHIJIN it confirms my thought that these must usually have been covered over by other textiles when worn and so protected. (Iain posted one photo above. The other I would like to scan and post but my scanner has decided to play up so I hope I can post later.)

I am thinking that the jacket is from the same Tongdau County, Hunan Province area. Pages 96/97 of MINJIAN ZHIJIN show a detail of a weaving with similar motifs in the whte zig-zags. Perhaps Steven Frost, who has just received his copy of this excellent book, can confirm that the text indicates that it is from this region?


Attachments:
File comment: Front of Dong woven child's jacket
n1546w.jpg
n1546w.jpg [ 65.71 KiB | Viewed 9003 times ]
File comment: Back of Dong woven child's jacket
n1546-3w.jpg
n1546-3w.jpg [ 65.57 KiB | Viewed 9003 times ]
File comment: detail of Dong woven child's jacket
n1546-1w.jpg
n1546-1w.jpg [ 66.2 KiB | Viewed 9003 times ]
File comment: detail of Dong woven child's jacket
n1546-2w.jpg
n1546-2w.jpg [ 69.59 KiB | Viewed 9003 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:51 pm 
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I managed to scan one of the images on page 21 of MINJIAN ZHIJIN and you can see a baby gloriously thickly wrapped in woven textiles. Of course, these are in multi-colours and not my simple indigo and white. You can see the bib covering the front of the jacket and, I think, going around to the back.


Attachments:
File comment: photo gof Dong mother and child from page 21 of MINJIAN ZHIJIN
p21-MINJIAN-ZHIJIN.jpg
p21-MINJIAN-ZHIJIN.jpg [ 69.81 KiB | Viewed 8996 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:57 pm 
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I thought it might be helpful to post a couple of map details to pin down Tongdau county, Hunan. Having just had a look at my 'Southern China' in the Nelles Maps 'Explore the World' series which I used for my last SW China trip in 2005 I now realise that this Dong area is a north-east continuation of the Dong areas of Rongjiang and Congjiang in eastern Guizhou as well as a north-north-west continuation from Guilin in Guangxi. Many of you may well have realised this but I have to confess to ignorance of Hunan.

I have created a map image trying to get the region within an area with more familiarity (to me) and then more of a detail around Tongdau.

I feel a little bit frustrated since my 2005 trip included quite a bit of the area shown on the maps and a diversion northwards to Tongdau was almost within reach!


Attachments:
File comment: Guizhou/Hunan/Guangxi from 'Southern China' in the Nelles Maps 'Explore the World' series
hunan-tongdau.jpg
hunan-tongdau.jpg [ 147.21 KiB | Viewed 8969 times ]
File comment: detail of Tongdau county, Hunan from 'Southern China' in the Nelles Maps 'Explore the World' series
hunan-tongdau-det.jpg
hunan-tongdau-det.jpg [ 137.6 KiB | Viewed 8969 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:08 am 
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Be careful of those maps of southwest China Pamela!

"I feel a little bit frustrated since my 2005 trip included quite a bit of the area shown on the maps and a diversion northwards to Tongdau was almost within reach!"

Those distances are deceptive. That said the Dong have been living there far longer than the borders of Hunan, Guizhou and Guangxi have been established.

Steven

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:57 am 
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For those interested in weaving in south west China see http://www.tribaltextiles.info/communit ... =3858#3858 where there is a synopsis of (the book) Minjian Zhijin's introduction by Steven Frost:
Quote:
"It is a loose translation, but the general ideas are there. "Minjian" means "folk" and "zhijin" is brocade.""

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 Post subject: Dong child's tunic
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:57 am 
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Continuing to add to image library - here is a finely woven Dong child's tunic. This piece has been well worn with a small patch strengthening the uppermost fastner. The image of the opened tunic shows the delightful weaving. The two of the three "knot and loop" fasteners have broken over time and five "press-stud" fasteners have been incorporated. Only one of the latter is in working order.
Measurements: neck opening: 10cm diameter; length: 40 cm; width at base: 34cm.


Attachments:
File comment: Front of tunic
DSCN9056.JPG
DSCN9056.JPG [ 32.69 KiB | Viewed 3619 times ]
File comment: Back of tunic
DSCN9061.JPG
DSCN9061.JPG [ 33.24 KiB | Viewed 3619 times ]
File comment: Opened tunic
DSCN9058.JPG
DSCN9058.JPG [ 31.98 KiB | Viewed 3619 times ]
File comment: Back of weaving
DSCN9059.JPG
DSCN9059.JPG [ 56.97 KiB | Viewed 3619 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Thanks, Iain

I just love these children's items made from recycled Dong weavings - and have a few in my collection because I can't resist them!

There is such a sense of valuing the weaving so that any good scrap can be reused and also the sense of loving and valuing of the child for whom the piece of clothing was been made. Add to that the way that the garment is nurtured and coaxed along showing that clearly the life of the family is tough and it must be made to last as long as possible. Of course, when the garment was first made it would probably have been worn for a festival or a more special occasion but, as it got more worn, it slipped down the pedigree of 'events' until it would be used for every day wear. Several 'stories' displayed!

PS - I wonder if the jacket was made from re-used pieces from a babycarrier? I feel that I can 'see' carrier pieces.

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