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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:53 am 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 4:55 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Netherlands
Hello !
By now the regular visitor on the forum must know that I am always trying to gather information about my children clothing. Andrew has helped me with some things and suggested to put some more things on the forum. So there we go: recently I have bought a blue Chinese jacket, which I cannot track in my books on the Chinese clothing.
Also have bought two hats. One is very special because there is a little picture from a man on the top. Such thing always makes me curious!! The second one is interesting because of the special shape. Can anybody help me with these new “goodies”.

Than I would love to know if there is somebody out there who is also collecting children clothing???
Have a wonderfull Christmas and a happy and healthy 2006! Monique


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File comment: is this the babys father
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File comment: backside of the jacket
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File comment: blue cotton jacket with orange embrodery
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:14 pm 
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Location: Cheam, UK
Monique, I have a tentative indentification for your first hat:
It appears to have similarities to those worn by the Nuosu branch of the Yi ethnic group who inhabit the high plateaus of Sichuan and Yunnan towards the Tibetan area. In the colour plate section of "Mountain Patterns: the survival of Nuosu culture in China" by Stevan Harrell & Bamo Qubumo, is a photograph of a Nuosu child (plate 12) wearing a hat which is somewhat similar in its general flavour to the example above. it consists of a sqaure central panel which stands quite tall and appears to have triangular projections at the top, a bit like a crown. These and the edges of the panel are decorated with bright pink pompoms and bunches of wool. The most important aspect in this case is, however, the decoration of the central panel itself, which consists of an embriodered pattern dominated by thin tendril-like spirals: - black outlined in yellow against a contrasting background of red. This overall design appears to be a speciallity of the Nuosu and is seen in other textiles illustrated here. It is difficult to tell from the photo what form the hat takes at the back, but it may project into a kind of tail as in the hat illustrated on the back cover of the book.
The Yi as a whole produce a dazzling array of headdresses, jackets, skirts etc, the headgear among the various groups being of astonishing variety. In this light, it may be quite possible that your second very different hat could be from a Yi group, but positive identification can be rendered very difficult due to overlap in costume between the different major ethnic groups as they are classified by the Chinese: eg some Yi costumes look similar to Hani and Miao etc. Having said this, however the design on the first hat seems to be fairly typical Nuosu work, and has the feeling of being very ancient (Central Asian cut- felt designs spring to mind)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:05 am 
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Hi, Monique

Not knowing anything about the Nuosu, nor having the book Siriol mentions above, I shall only comment that, to me, your first hat (372) looks as if it could be from the Miao of Jian He county. The use of the animal/insect/butterfly pattern, the red, yellow and black material and the applique technique is pretty much the same as that on the baby carrier in Bonding via Baby Carriers, page 82 No.22. Maybe.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:44 pm 
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Andrew

I agree that the first hat (372) has a strong Miao 'feel' about it. I have had a look at the #22 baby carrier on page 82 of 'Bonding via Baby Carriers' and can see similarities. When I saw the hat first I thought that the technique had some similarities to embroidery in the Geyi township of Tanjiang county. This is also south-east Guizhou as is Jian He county.

I think that it is so hard to judge the exact location with baby hats as their style often seems less specific to the costume of a particular group and village/county. Looking at the hat I would say that it was made some time ago. I would be interested to see a close-up photo of the embroidery technique.

The next hat seems quite Han influenced.

I have spent some time looking for the jacket as I felt that the embroidered squares appliqued on the back rang some bells in my mind. However, I have not, so far, felt that I have identified it although there have been one or two similarities. Again I would like to see a close-up detail of the embroidery in the squares. I find it very hard with small photos without much magnification to identify. I have enlarged the photos a little (whilst reducing the file size to make them load more quickly) but have not had success in seeing more clearly.

An interesting group of textiles.

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


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 Post subject: children clothing
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:58 pm 
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Location: Netherlands
Hi Siriol, Andrew and Pamela,

Great to get that may responses! When I had read the answer from Siriol I have tried to find info about the Nuosu. I couldn’t find any pictures that would help me and I don’t have the book that Siriol mentioned. It could be a Nuosu hat….. some time ago I have bought a “Tibetan” hat that has got the same decorations. I also have looked up the pattern that Andrew mentions. The decoration on page 82 shows exactly the some pattern as on my “Tibetan” hat.
I will make as soon as possible some close-ups from the embroidery technique of the first hat and the jacket. I will put a side view from the hat on the forum now and a picture from the “Tibetan hat”
The second hat, I had called “the lotus hat”, I also think has got some Han influence. It makes me so curious when I see a picture. Than I just want to know who this man is, what the history of the hats is.
Again thanks a lot!


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File comment: side view from the UFO hat
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File comment: my "Tibetan hat"
DSCN1949web.jpg
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:44 pm 
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There is another reference on the Yi I have just been looking at called "The costumes and adornments of Chinese Yi nationality picture album" The front cover features a design with black curling patterns outlined in yellow against a red background. While I still can't find any direct match for Monique's 1st hat, it may be useful to state that such designs appear to be very common among the group who according to the above book wear the "Butuo style" these, I assume are part of the Nuosu Yi.
Now that Andrew has brought the Miao into the equation, I have had a quick look at their textiles and have seen somewhat similar designs. (unfortunatly I don't have the Bonding via baby carriers book) I now must admit to having doubts about the possible Yi provenace of Monique's hat, and maybe it was just the colour scheme that made me think of the Nuosu. To complicate the picture further,curling and tendril-like patterns appear to be fairly common among the peoples of the Tibetan borderlands eg the Qiang and eastern Tibetan groups as well as the Yi, among others.
Monique, your Tibetan hat is wonderful, where did you get it, and do you have an idea of which part of Tibet it's from? it has the feeling of being old, and although I have a number of well illustrated books on Tibetan costume I don't remember having seen anything quite like it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:49 pm 
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Had a look at "Miao textile design" (Fu Jen Catholic University Press) and found a photo of a baby carrier described as having designs of butterfly and bracken scrolls in applique and embroidery, Jianhe County, Guizhou province (page 81, fig I-86). This, I believe is similar to that mentioned by Andew above.
The significant point is that the central section of this textile has a similar colour scheme to Monique's hat: red, black and yellow, exactly the colours also found in many Nuosu examples. The spiral designs and tendrils recall the Yi examples quite vividly and also have a similar flavour to those on the hat.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:29 am 
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Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Hello All-
These are wonderful little hats- beautiful examples of the art. I am really drawn to the archetypal spiral motifs and since first seeing panels with these designs in China have been fascinated with the artful ways in which color is used with this pattern, giving it both a modern and an ancient feel. The second hat is quite enigmatic with the little photograph sewn in- probably the father, and do I detect the bill of a hat, military perhaps? Fascinating...

I, too have been looking thru my books- mainly the Yi book on costumes and adornments and the baby carrier book and tho I find similar work and motifs in the Yi book, I think that both the first hat and the 'Tibetan' hat are probably from Jian-He County in Guizhou Province, as Andrew suggested. I also have some coats on my website from this area and with the spiral motif and in similar colors (http://www.tribaltrappings.com/TACH_2.html, especially TACH194). Also I don't recall seeing the little silver deity figures on things Tibetan, but I don't know much about things Tibetan... I do see them a lot in Guizhou.

Thanks Monique for taking the time to share these charming little hats. Now Pamela has some work to do compiling these and the sweet little hats from the Gejia, plus any previous ones.

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Susan Stem

http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/


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 Post subject: compare
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:23 am 
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Location: Netherlands
Hello!
First of all I wish everybody a happy and healthy New Year!
Yesterday evening I have taken a look at the hats we were studying at. With the information Susan had given I have chosen three hats with similar spiral decorations. I will put a picture of the third hat on the web today. When I look at the decorations especially the two first ones have the same pattern as the coat from Susan which was from Jian He county. The third ones has the same idea pattern. Because I cannot find any pictures to compare the Nuosu style clothing with the hats I think more about a Miao origin. The hats 1949 and 1951 were sold to me as Tibetan hats, but you never know................... Susan mentioned that she never has seen Tibetan hats with the metal decorations. Isn't internet a great way to exchange information!!!!!!!!
Again a step closer to solving the UFO mysterie!


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File comment: top of the hat
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File comment: second so called "TIbetan" hat
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:54 pm 
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I think that the first hat that Monique posted is really fascinating. I have not seen such an interesting sculptured style before. We have been seeing it in instalments and quite small. Forgive me if I take the liberty to post all three photos together - for impact - and slightly larger.

Now having seen the top, or 'crown' of the hat it is amazing to see how similar it is to the couple of Miao jackets on Susan Stem's site.

Monique, is the hat quite hard and stiff almost like a helmet?

I have been enlarging the other 'Tibetan' hats and the deity charms are interesting. They do not seem to be the same as the mass produced ones today. The whorls on the crown on the 1949 hat are very similar to the crown of the first hat. They do look like Miao hats to me...

Thanks, Monique, some interesting textiles!


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dscn3961web_310a.jpg
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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
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 Post subject: top of the hat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:51 am 
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Hi Pamela,

Thanks for putting all three pictures together. I also have them together on my computer, because I think it gives a nice overview.
The top of the hat is a a little bit stiff/ padded but not really. The sides are soft. I also think it is a fascinating little hat! This week I will meet a friend who also is familiar with oriental textiles and I also will meet Ien Rappoldt, a Dutch lady who has written the book: "Woven stories." The culture of the Miao in China. Let's see what they can confirm the Miao story.


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 Post subject: eureka jacket found
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:09 pm 
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Recently I contacted the lady from who I have bought the jacket. She told me that she was told that the jacket was a Ge Jia jacket. The batik en the orange decorations seem to make this a reasonable answer.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:47 pm 
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Monique

I thought that the rectangles of embroidery on the back of the jacket had a GeJia style but dismissed it as an idea for the jacket because the 'cut' of the jacket was so unlike any Ge Jia jacket that I had seen.

I don't know if Andrew can advise as he is very much our Ge Jia expert.

Re batik. There are very many Miao groups who do very fine wax resist so this is not necessarily a pointer to the garment being Ge Jia.

I have looked through most of my reference books on Chinese minorities and not found anything very similar. Just some likenesses. This one is quite a puzzle.

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:42 pm 
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Gosh! I’d hate to say it is not Ge Jia, but I’ve never seen a Ge Jia child’s jacket (presumably it is a child’s jacket?) like this. I have to admit that I hadn’t looked at all closely until now, as I simply didn’t recognize it as anything I could comment on. However, a machine made, market bought light blue (‘though darker than this) cotton cloth was commonly used in small quantities on the bottoms of baby carriers, jacket cuffs and collars etc. and represented family wealth, being an expensive item to purchase. This lighter blue cloth and the woven lengths of orange braid (hand woven or machine made?) look similar to that used on more recent skirts (maybe 10-20 years ago), and the sun pattern that includes batik (unclear, but could well be Ge Jia) around the neck is typically found on Ge Jia young children’s jackets (see previous Monique thread on children’s clothes). Also, the orange embroidered back squares look a little similar in style to recent Ge Jia sleeves. So, yes, perhaps it is Ge Jia, but it’s very difficult to tell from these photos!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:50 pm 
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Monique

This is getting interesting!

Could you manage to take close-up photos of the batik, the braid and the rectangles of embroidery on the back and post them?

In hopes...

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


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