tribaltextiles.info

It is currently Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:30 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 53
Location: USA
I got this from a scout in Thailand who bout it in Laos. http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/rgmook@prodi ... en+Textile He thought it is of Karen origin. I'm not so sure. It is 170 cm x 62 cm. The ends are not finished. It appears to be hand spun cotton or a cotton/silk mixture. The decoration on the bottom is embroidered. All comments are appreciated as always. Best regards, Richard M. (formerly Richard)

Edited by Pamela (17 July 2003) to include the image

Image

originally posted on 14 Apr 03


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:45 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Richard, to me this does not look like Karen at all. I think it has much more of a Tai Dam 'feel' about it. I am posting a link to one of the photos from Vietnam in a Southern White Tai weaving village http://www.tribaltextiles.info/Gallerie ... /TWVE2.htm - the black and white weave in the photo is similar. There are a range of designs woven. Michael Howard makes much in his book on Textiles of the Daic Peoples of Vietnam of the Black Thai, White Thai mixture in Hoa Binh, Thanh Hoa and Nghe An provinces - which are close to border with Laos. You would find Tai Dam in either place. See Mary F Connors 'Lao Textiles and Traditions' details on Lao Bibliography page. Figure 8 in colour photos section has a 'Northern Lao blanket' it has black and white cotton weave and a red end. Page 26. figure 9 in black and white has a detail of a Tai Daeng cloth with Dong Son inspired motifs which also has a 'feel' of your piece. On yours, to me, the black (or indigo) and white look cotton and the lovely rusty red ends look silk or silk and cotton. Nice piece, by the way! Pamela


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
Hi Richard, In my copious free time unplugged (our Mac just got back!) I authentised a very similar piece. It is a T'ai Daeng blanket, with an interesting Dong Son motif (as Pamela noted). Tai Daeng blankets and their other large pieces are characterised by a red hem usually directly woven into the textile, which can be either cotton or silk. Check to see if there's any backing-if not it could be used other than a blanket. Nice piece, but I think its supplementay weft on the bottom.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
Hi Richard, at a second glance-is there any evidence that the red border was sewn on rather than actually attached in the weaving process? Also, I'm pretty sure this piece is one panel of two forming a larger textile; really nice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 53
Location: USA
Sandie, Thank you for your interest. This is in fact woven as one panel. I like it very much and was one of those that I thought was misidentified when I was offered it. My gut reaction was to buy it as it rang a few bells and worry about the origin later. You all help me very much in expanding my knowledge. Thanks, Richard


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:32 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Paris, France
As Pamela and Sandra noted, it is a Tai Daeng textile but some similar piece are a shoulder wrap cloth, so I am not sure than one panel is missing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Richard - I recently came across a similar piece in a shop here in Chiang Mai. It is comprised of two panels sewn together along the length and has silk supplementary weft work at one end. I will try and get you some photos. Also, in Susan Conway's book, Thai Textiles, on p.129 there is a design motif similar to that in the main body of your piece. The blanket depicted was woven in Khon Kaen province in NE Thailand (south of Vientiane, Laos). Many Lao people live in this area, and have for many centuries, making it sometimes difficult to tell if a Lao-style weaving is from Laos, or Thailand. Somehow, the relative simplicity of the body of your piece reminds me more of the work being done in Thailand. It is hard to know exactly, tho. Best regards to all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:55 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Susan, thanks VERY much for reminding me of Susan Conway's book. Excellent to see similarities with this piece of Richard's. This led me on the browse and UREKA! On page 144 is an example of "a cotton phasin, Nan Province (Thailand). Red and white cotton matmi, alternating with bands of supplementary weft woven in white, black, red and yellow cotton". It is very similar indeed to Richard's much early query about a possible Burma piece and I thought that it looked rather like a Karen piece but Sandie thought a Shan (Tai) piece from Burma. I am posting the link back to this message. http://www.tribaltextiles.info/communit ... c.php?t=26 Interesting how in both cases 'Karen' has come up as a possible yet it has not felt 'right'. On page 142 Susan Conway talks of Nan province (lying to the east of the Chiang Mai valley, separated by a range of small mountains. She says that the largest Tai group living in the Nan valley are Tai Lue. She says they are Sino Tai origin, they migrated from Sipsong Panna, southern China, and in the last 200 years have settled in the Nan valley. Some good explanation of the textiles. Think I might make this book my current bedtime (insomnia) reading. Type not too small for eye strain in the middle of the night! Thanks again, Susan! Two pieces in one reference!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:02 pm 
Question for Richard Mook. These indigo and red weave photos are titled Karen textile. Is it not a tribal weave from Xieng Khang or Hua Phan, Laos? Thanks, Phil


I have copied this posted question from Phil from the 'Batik Trends' thread http://www.tribaltextiles.info/communit ... c.php?t=31 where Richard's link for the photos also appeared. Good to join all the comment on this textile together on the main thread. Pamela


Top
  
 
 Post subject: its T'ai Daeng
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
Hi Phil,

You must have missed my earlier posting when I identified this textile as T'ai Daeng. You are correct about the area in Laos where this cloth was woven.

Sandie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:24 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
I thought that I would share with you all a photo of a modern textile woven in Laos copying an earlier traditional textile which Susan Stem and I found in Patricia Naenna Cheesman's studio in Chiang Mai last October. It was a very, very beautiful piece of weaving and we were very attracted to it - and both of us immediately thought of Richard's 'mystery' textile 'Is it Karen' and this thread on the forum.

We understood the weaver to be Tai/Lao although we did not discover the individual ethnic identity of the weaver within this broad grouping (but it most certainly was not Karen.)

Image Image Image

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: is it karen?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:52 am
Posts: 162
Location: California, USA
I have checked out the textile at Patricia Cheeseman's which was just posted. Unfortunately for me, the photos blocked out some text. However, I believe this textile is in an embryonic stage; woven with the red panels in place at either end in T'ai Daeng style.

These photos illustrate the weaving of a large textile with narrow weft at the state before it is to be cut; then comes the painstaking process of matching the two sides. The extent the two sides form a coherent overall pattern (design) will determine its "value", as a reflection of the weaver's skill.

This is usually done by counting the supplementary weft lines at one end and matching (or measuring) the perceived other end as one weaves, a really difficult task!

Did Patricia comment on the structure of the textile as being "pre-cut"? There would not be any other reason to weave a textile with such great length.

As for the NAAK design, I think it is an amplification of smaller motifs to increase the aesthetics of this piece. And alas, the individual skill needed of the weaver for these newer pieces takes precidence over ethnic and geographical cues.

On another matter, "Sino Tai" (or Sino Thai) is an ethnym for Thais of Chinese background. Since the heimat of the Tai is somewhere in Southern China or Northern Vietnam, all Tai originate from China ultimately, even though some have migrated into Thailand and Laos in historical times. I believe everyone has heard this lecture from me before. Take pity on me, I'm just trying to ease back into academe!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:41 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Sandie

None of the text has been hidden by the photos. I am not sure why people assume because the photos are in a message that there must be text behind them - I don't have enough verbal gems for that! I forgot when posting the photos that I have a high resolution screen and so the photos would not be seen by others as 3 side by side as on my screen but probably 2 up and one below.

(I am afraid that I have screwed up the main photo upload mode as well as some other improvements by overwriting some files on the server on Monday! I have tried to remedy tonight but no luck. Jose is away in Spain and will not be back until next week when I think I will have to ask him to re-install the whole forum software for me. Very cross with myself but there it is. I therefore went back to the cruder photo upload mode which he had put in place for us earlier on.)

Patricia did not make any comments on why the textile was so long nor about it being cut. Neither I nor Susan thought to ask her. My excuse is that I was so taken by the quality of the weaving that I did not ask the questions that I should have done.

You are allowed the Sino-Tai lecture at least once a year (but you have used your slot rather early in 2004 so no trying to sneak it in again unless there is extreme provocation...!)

All the best,

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:27 am
Posts: 124
Location: Los Angeles, CA
This is not a Karen Piece, but a Tai piece, is out of Sam Neua Province in Laos. These have always been a favorite of mine. Most of the time, the warp is silk with cotton supplimentary yarns in the weft. the red border section is silk in both warp and weft. They are used as blankets or shoulder pieces. This group is called the "red Tai." Many of the designs on these blankets are similar to designs in many cultures around the world.

Bill Hornaday


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:14 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
I had the good fortune to be in Chiang Mai recently and enjoying sharing textiles with forum member Susan Stem.

Susan introduced me to some fascinating textile contacts during my visit and, on one occasion, I was completely overwhelmed by Lao weavings. With the particular thread in mind Susan suggested that I take a photo of some Lao curtains, probably from Sam Nuea, to add to this thread. I bought the one on the right - which has similarities to the one in Richard's orginal post.

Looking at Richard's textile again I realise that both his and my textile have an interesting selvedge pattern showing at each side of the curtain.


Attachments:
File comment: Lao door curtains, probably from Sam Nuea, possibly Tai Daeng
IMGP1139_.jpg
IMGP1139_.jpg [ 53.34 KiB | Viewed 13727 times ]
File comment: Lao door curtain, probably from Sam Nuea, possibly Tai Daeng. Note the selvedge edge pattern. 15.5"x66" (39.5cmx168cm)
Sam-Neua-curtain2_.jpg
Sam-Neua-curtain2_.jpg [ 53.77 KiB | Viewed 13727 times ]

_________________
Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Last edited by Pamela on Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group