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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:27 am
Posts: 124
Location: Los Angeles, CA
At Pamela's urgent request/demand I am posting three Gejia Baby Carriers. The one titled Gejia Baby Carrier 3 seems measurably older than Baby Carriage 2 or 3. It is hope we can create a series of this type of baby carrier as several members have collections. It is interesting to note the similarity and differences between the iconography of the wax-resist and the embroidered baby carriers.


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gejia_baby_carrier_3-detail.jpg
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gejia_baby_carrier_1-full.jpg
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Gejia Baby Carrier 1-detail.jpg
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Gejia Baby Carrier 2-full.jpg
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Gejia Baby Carrier 2-detail 1.jpg
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Gejia Baby Carrier 2-detail 2.jpg
Gejia Baby Carrier 2-detail 2.jpg [ 63.53 KiB | Viewed 9574 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:08 pm 
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Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Bill- Those are quite beautiful, especially the third one. We see quite a few of the embroidered ones here in Chiang Mai, but mostly in red; it's nice to see a bit of variety.

I love that the third one has its straps intact and am curious to know more about it: are the straps that look like batik, in fact batik, and are they black and white, or dark indigo? The more slender, woven strap is lovely too. The three elements are beautifully combined. Do you know where these are from- village, province, etc.?

Thank you indeed for sharing these.

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http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
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Location: Canterbury, UK
Bill,

Thank you so VERY much for posting these three embroidered Gejia babycarriers. I know I have been a pain, nagging you to do so! I think that they are lovely ones with very rich embroidery. I do like all the squiggles in the embroidery - gives it a lot of life. I have asked Andrew if he will let me have a close up of the embroidery in his embroidered babycarrier http://www.tribaltextiles.info/communit ... =1004#1004 so that we can see if the style of embroidery is similar to mine or similiar to Bill's. As you can see, mine - link below - is much more straight lines and less hooks/squiggles.

Susan

I would think that the ties showing on Bill's babycarrier 2 would be dark indigo. If you have a look at http://www.tribaltextiles.info/communit ... ?p=996#996 the other recent Gejia thread you will see that my embroidered baby carrier has some batik fabric ties (not nearly so finely waxed as Bill's). These are a very dark indigo. I don't know if it is natural or chemical indigo and the same might be said of Bill's although to me - however, I would rely on Andrew to say - that Bill's babycarriers look quite old and thus might well be natural indigo rather than chemical. If they are natural it will have taken a lot of dipping to get that very dark colour, 10 or 12 times - but how stunning the very stark contrast with the white resist.

I thought you might like this photo of a woman weaving a band (of course in rather a lurid red, the modern fashionable colour) which might be similar to one added onto Bill's carrier; see the woman wearing a babycarrier - note the quite dark indigo in her jacket and also the quite dark indigo in the batik jacket that the woman is wearing in the foreground. I am also thinking perhaps I missed some interesting batik jackets in the heap in the foregroun..!


Attachments:
File comment: Ma Tang village, Kaili City in November 2001
0111G35_.jpg
0111G35_.jpg [ 57.75 KiB | Viewed 9539 times ]

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http://www.tribaltextiles.info
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:27 am
Posts: 124
Location: Los Angeles, CA
As to questions regarding Baby Carrier 2 the wax-resist straps are clearly indigo and seem even darker in real life than the pic. This piece is clearly very old as the straps while old do not seem to be the first set of straps used on the carrier. Because of the quality of the Baby Carrier itself, I would have loved to see the original straps.

It seems evident that this piece has been used by multiple generations. It seems as the silk thread has been faded whether by sun or by washing it is imposible to say. There are definite signs of wear, and one place has a 3/4 inch patch. One has only to feel it to realize that it has a feel that comes from serious age.

One knowledgeable person thinks that Baby carrier 1 is new. I got it about 12 years ago. It may well be, but my instincts, which are extremely cynical, indicate it may have some age, comparing it to some pieces in another collection which are definitely from the 50's. Who knows? The pics of this piece are not good and especially do not show the correst colors. My apologies.

Baby Carrier 3 is clearly new and probably made for sale. It does show dirt, but that of course could have been applied at an attempt at fakery. Or used for minutes to convince a tourist that they bought the piece right off of the back of a mother. I don't know if sophisticated marketing techniques have hit Guizhou yet, but it wouldn't surprize me.

Maybe our sometimes reclusive, always knowledgeable resident expert Andrew can chime in.

Bill
www.hornadayart.com.
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Last edited by Bill Hornaday on Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:08 pm 
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Location: Bristol, England
Apologies to Bill for suggesting baby carrier 1 could be new. Unfortuately, I have seen several modern copies over the last couple of years that have a similar overall design and apparent 'faded' colouring to this one. So, perhaps being reclusive has its benefits, as you don't end up making an ass of yourself for trying to be too clever.

Since Bill says carrier 1 was bought 12 years ago, it has to be original, as no self respecting Ge Jia would have made copies to cheat the public in those days, in which case, it would probably be classified as one of those dating to about 100 years ago.

Here is a baby carrier that still has its original 1930-1940 (probably) colours. Unfortunately, the maker missed one line of inner bordering on the lower piece of tubu cloth which elongates the lower groups of butterflies and spoils the overall effect. Still, it's useful to see what the colours on Bill's two old baby carriers would probably have looked like.

I've just gone through my sleeves and come up with this one that is quite similar in style to Bill's carrier 1. I suppose I should say this was made in the 20th Century, probably!


Attachments:
File comment: Ge Jia baby carrier
Ge-Jia-emb-baby-carrier 1.1.jpg
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File comment: Ge Jia baby carrier (detail)
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File comment: Ge Jia sleeve (detail)
Ge-Jia-emb-sleeve-10.jpg
Ge-Jia-emb-sleeve-10.jpg [ 72.63 KiB | Viewed 9511 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
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Location: Canterbury, UK
A few of thoughts leading on from Bill and Andrew's posts:

1. Although being able to post photos is great there is nothing that can compensate for seeing and feeling the real textile. Also, colours in photos so often are only a poor miss on those in the original textile.

2. The importance of giving the date when a textile was collected. This, at least, should be a certain date. As in the case of the baby carrier above whether it was purchased 12 years ago or not is important in determining whether the textile was likely to be newly made and 'encouraged' to fade and age or not.

3. Andrew mentioned to me that he had seen
Quote:
"some seriously good copies being sold on the streets of Kaili now for 3/4/5,000 RMB which use colours that look as if they have faded".
I suppose it is likely that this is an attempt at deliberately misleading purchasers. However, a couple more thoughts: I have found that prices are much higher for new pieces because of the closeness to the hard work of making the piece; many of us - and I am one - am less comfortable with very bright colours than more muted, faded ones. However, this is usually the reverse for the tribal groups who revel in the ability to have very bright colours.

4. Buy what you really like regardless of what the age of the textile may be. Certainly the fineness of the embroidery may show a great skill regardless of whether it was made 5 or 50 years ago. Sandie is always telling us that we should not be so hung up on the age of a textile and what excellent new pieces can be found.

5. I hope that Bill will not mind but I am going to share with you something that he told me about when he bought his first Gejia embroidered pieces:
Quote:
"They are some of my favorite embroideries. Something both beautiful and powerful about these. I found Baby Carrier 1 in Bangkok and immediately fllew to China. I had never been exposed to any of the Chinese Miao textiles. I bought Baby Carrier 1 without even knowing what it was. Buy it, find out about it later. Hasn't been the first time that has happened."
To me that summed up the joy of discovery of traditional textiles and chimed with several similar moments in my own collecting career.

6. Last but not least, my thanks to Bill for sharing and to Andrew for going out on a limb to give further information. I know that Andrew has beaten himself up over misjudging Bill's Babycarrier 1 and suggesting it was new. I think that, in the event, we have all learned a lot more.

Perhaps a final point on whether something is genuine or not. In the Gejia village where my photos come from all the women were wearing head cloths which were machine printed batik imitations on not hand drawn waxings! This was not a matter of deception but choice. So, beware, everything is not as it may seem!


Attachments:
File comment: Gejia woman wearing machine printed headcloth resembling batik Ma Tang Village, Kaili City, Guizhou Province 2001.
0111F29e.jpg
0111F29e.jpg [ 57.84 KiB | Viewed 9490 times ]

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
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For the last couple of weeks I have been working on preparing material for the web on the Ge Jia. I finally completed work on the photogallery of my visit in November 2001 to Ma Tang village, Kaili city, Guizhou province. http://www.tribaltextiles.info/Galleries/Ma_Tang.htm I then started work on a photogallery based on the material on Ge Jia baby carriers which has been published on 4 threads (to date) on the forum. I am indebted to the support of Andrew Dudley and Bill Hornaday in allowing me to use their photos and for supplying me with additional information and, in the case of Andrew, 3 additional photos. See the gallery as it stands at the moment at:
http://www.tribaltextiles.info/Gallerie ... rriers.htm

If anyone has photos of additional baby carriers that they are prepared to share please post the photos on the forum and I can see about adding them to what I would like to think can be a growing resource. It has been a fascinating exercise to date and I feel that I have learnt quite a lot about Ge Jia textiles. My particular thanks must go to Andrew for sharing his knowlege of these textiles and being as keen as I am to provide details as accurately as we are able.

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
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 Post subject: Ge Jia Gallery
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:31 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Many thanks to Pamela for creating such a good resource. It's really helpful to be able to see all the pieces on a page together, as I'm sure all will agree.

I am enclosing photos of a carrier panel that I have in my collection. It doesn't appear to be Ge Jia, but perhaps someone could provide information about it's possible origin.

Thanks again, Pamela!


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mail-tach157_detail_2_.jpg
mail-tach157_detail_2_.jpg [ 60.11 KiB | Viewed 9429 times ]

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Susan Stem

http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 7:12 am
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Location: Bristol, England
2 years ago there was a pretty good exhibition on batik, predominantly from Guizhou province, here in Taiwan. The book that accompanied the exhibition includes this style which is described as being produced by the Miao from Qian Xi county in the north west of Guizhou (on the map it is directly north west of Guiyang city). Unfortunately, there is nothing more that I can add.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:56 pm 
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Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Andrew-
Many thanks for that information! And apologies for injecting batik on what was essentially an embroidery thread; I just happened to remember that I had photos of this one and no real idea of its origin.

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Susan Stem

http://www.tribaltrappings.com
http://tribaltrappings.blogspot.com/


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