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 Post subject: jianhe
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:52 am
Posts: 72
Location: france
Bonjour à tous

Those jackets are sold under the appellation miao Jianhe siral style.
This type of design is not found in the documentation I have got on the Miao costumes. Jianhe is a location in the Gizhou area.

Two questions about this type of items : is there a more precise possible attribution of this style (and avaiable pictures of old ones)?
Are those jackets genuine ones or can they be recent fabrications from separated parts (ex for the jacket shown face and back, one old - or artificially aged- indigo vest, and new spiral patterned panels) ?

More generally what can be the "authenticity" of items that can be got from the net market today due to the incraeasing scarcity of "good" pieces in the villages or on the field chinese market ?

I am looking for a basket used in the Miao villages to dry the starched pleated skirts.

Amicales salutations à tous


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:45 am
Posts: 142
Louis,

Jianhe borders Taijiang on the southeast side. Soon much of Jianhe will be completely underwater because it has remained very underdeveloped and the province has decided to dam the river and build a hydroelectric facility.
The style of embroidery you posted should be illustrated in Chinese published books, if one of our members has time to track it down.

There are definitely "aged" pieces on the market. Yesterday I was reading an account of "aged" Han textiles being sold to foreigners 100 years ago, so this is not a new practice. There are also cases where old pieces of embroidery are re- used on new garments because the people still consider them beautiful.

For me the funnest and most interesting part of the forum is seeing everyone's new acquisitions and mystery pieces, so keep posting.

All the best,
Steven
www.stevenqfrost.net


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 Post subject: Further Jianhe info
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:30 am
Posts: 315
Louis
This 'style' of jacket you have posted and queried I believe is a recent development. The "spiral" design is attributed to the Miao located broadly within the Nanshao District of Jianhe County. This 'broad' description includes the towns of Nanshao, Taiyun, Joyi and Tsanmo. However, it is also found in small pockets in areas nearby namely in Taijiang, Ronjiang and Liping Counties.
I firstly draw your attention to pp 128-133 of Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou ISBN 9579000921. The wonderful appliquéd spiral panels appearing on this jacket are almost certainly taken from old baby carrier panels examples of which may be seen in images 45 and 46 (p.130) and image 62 (p.133.). These images were taken from Jianhe County, Nanshao District, Taiyun Township, Taiping Village during June 1996.

After speaking with some collectors and researchers here in Taiwan, the general consensus appears to be that the spiral design jacket you have posted is not worn by the Nanshao Miao group and that it represents a new development possibly aimed at retail - no-one in Taiwan had actually seen a similarly designed jacket being worn in Guizhou.

Looking at the jacket you initially posted: the shape does indeed conform to that shown in the pages mentioned. However, of specific interest is that the accompanying text states that women wearing this style of dress adorn the jacket only with a waistbelt that employing the colours red and yellow (see also image 44). The apron worn at the front is always longer than the skirts so that when viewed from the back it gives a step-like appearance. Two pleated skirts are worn, which give the appearance of a mushroom/umbrella, and are intended to emphasise the buttocks.

The baby carrier of this Nanshao group is unlike other baby carriers within the Miao as it does not actually "hold" the baby - this being done with other materials. The Nanshao group uses this baby carrier panel as a loose decorative panel that covers the baby carrier and baby - a shift from the movable head cover that may be found in a number of other Miao and Minority groups. This carrier panel is held in place with small ties crossed over the chest. The placement of these ties varies - commonly two located at the top of the carrier and a further two located either at the side or bottom of the panel.

Regarding the jacket you post - a truly beautiful piece in itself, incorporating fantastic appliqué but apparently not a traditional item in its current form.


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 Post subject: Jianhe images
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:32 am 
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Here are the images mentioned in the previous posting.


Attachments:
File comment: Figure 43 p. 130. Formal women's attire. Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou - Illustrated research Directory. 2000. Photo taken in Jianhe County, Liuchuan Town, Naishou Village 1992.12.05
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File comment: Figure 44 p. 130. Formal women's attire. Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou - Illustrated research Directory. 2000. Photo taken in Jianhe County, Liuchuan Town, Naishou Village 1992.12.05
掃描0005.jpg
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 Post subject: Further Jianhe images
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:36 am 
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These images show the baby carrier panel being worn.


Attachments:
File comment: Figure 45 p. 130. Young women's attire. Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou - Illustrated research Directory. 2000. Photo taken in Jianhe County, Taiyuan Town, Taiping Village 1996.06.14
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File comment: Figure 46 p. 130. Young women's attire. Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou - Illustrated research Directory. 2000. Photo taken in Jianhe County, Taiyuan Town, Taiping Village 1996.06.14
掃描0008.jpg
掃描0008.jpg [ 447.22 KiB | Viewed 11447 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:57 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:30 am
Posts: 315
Jianhe jacket and waistband
Figure 58 p. 131.
Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou - Illustrated Research Directory. 2000.

[I have reduced the size of this photo to 600 px in width as it was distorting reading the thread. Pamela]


Attachments:
File comment: Figure 58 p. 131. Miao Costumes of Southeast Guizhou - Illustrated Research Directory. 2000.
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 Post subject: recycling baby carriers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:52 am
Posts: 72
Location: france
Eello Iain

The last picture you shows makes me to think that the spiral design pannel that ornates the back of this type of jacket is made of great rectangular baby carriers that can be cut to fit with the dimensions of the back. As we can see in the entier jacket I show, the back panel is made of vertical bands sewn together in order to make a symetrical design. Between bands the design is not continuous, that could be an evidence that those bands come from a bigger rectangular panel with continuous design. The same thing for the shoulder panels that seem also to have been cut in a larger piece.

Those jackets should be new creations (for the market) from older separated pieces. This fact could explain that the indigo jackets have a used aspect and the added panels seems to be unused (I suppose that baby carriers are more carefully treated than everyday clothes).

The first detailed pictures I have shown are from an other piece. I have to look at it in order to see if the technique is the same (it seems to me that this jacket has a more original structure than the second).


Merci des renseignements

Louis


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 Post subject: baby carrier and hats
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 4:55 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Netherlands
I have a baby carrier and three hats from that region. Great to see the women wearing the baby carrier. Thank you Iain for the beautiful pictures and the info.
I already wondered how such a carrier could hold the baby. If I understood well now it is actually a cover.
I also have three hats with the same with the same spirals. I presume they are also from that part.


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File comment: baby carrier uit Jianhe
miaospiraal.JPG
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Just to increase the resource I am posting images of a babycarrier cover from 3 pages of 'Bonding via Baby Carriers: The Art & Soul of the Miao & Dong People' byu Yu-Chiao Liu Lan, Christi Lan LIn and Brenda Lin ISBN 957-744-658-2. We have permission to post photos from this book with full attribution. It never ceases to amaze me how often examples from this volume are quoted on the forum. A very good resource. Forgive me for scanning the text with the photos to avoid typing - I seem to have been doing the latter a great deal recently!


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File comment: carrier 22 page 82 of Bonding via Baby Carriers: The Art & Soul of the Miao & Dong People'
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File comment: Details of whorls from carrier 22 page 83 of Bonding via Baby Carriers: The Art & Soul of the Miao & Dong People'
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File comment: Details of Miao carrier cover #22 from page 162 of Bonding via Baby Carriers: The Art & Soul of the Miao & Dong People'
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p162-BBC.jpg [ 53.56 KiB | Viewed 11434 times ]

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1989
Location: Canterbury, UK
Just a postscript..

I find it hard to believe that the jackets have been made up with the babycarrier cover pieces solely as fake jackets for sales to tourists or collectors. Babycarriers tend to be much more saleable than jackets. Odd sleeve pieces - similar to the pieces placed on the sleeves of the jackets - are often framed as individual pieces for tourists. Even babycarrier covers could be made up from several sources to get a good quality one.

I find it interesting that the major area of decoration of the jackets is the back - and echoes the wearing of the covers by the young girls at festivals over the back of their plain jackets.

I don't think that we have quite got to the bottom of these jackets and it is going to niggle with me until we can find out more about their production. Perhaps a forum member with contacts amongst the Kaili dealers might be able to find out some more information.

It perhaps gives added licence for the wearing of these jackets by non-Miao i.e. people like ourselves attracted by the sheer beauty and skill shown in the textiles and their techniques.

I would like to thank Iain for the very informative posts which he has given us - very, very helpful. Thanks to Louis for starting this interesting thread which has brought in Steven, Iain, Monique (thanks for sharing your attractive pieces) and myself. We will certainly all be keeping our eyes open for future sightings and information!

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
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 Post subject: Another Jianhe hat
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:06 am 
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Posts: 315
I post images of another hat from Jianhe County - very similar to the first posted by Monique. (my apologies for the image lighting) This hat is in somewhat poorer condition having lost all but six of the beaded tassels from the rim of the stiffened top. These were placed at roughly 3 cm intervals around the brim.
I too have a couple of children's tunics one of which was very obviously not made from an old baby carrier which lends weight to your concern that these may not be made purely for retail.
The practice of redying and reusing textiles in new pieces is well established amongst the Miao and other Minority groups and it is still possible that jackets which incorporate, and indeed appear to mimic, the wearing of the baby carrier panel may be worn by older individuals. Research opportunities abound - can we find an image of the 'reconstructed' jacket actually being worn in an 'authentic' situation?


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Jianhe hat leftside.jpg
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Jianhe hat back.jpg
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File comment: Diameter: ~22cm
Circumference: ~70cm

Jianhe hat top.jpg
Jianhe hat top.jpg [ 68.91 KiB | Viewed 11426 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:52 am
Posts: 72
Location: france
Bonjour

Here are two jackets, one was in my first post with only details, and two baby carriers. One of the jackets, with the back panel in only one piece is undoubtly original and shows a "good" patina and traces of wear. The second seems quite newer, and the back panel is made of three bands. The collar is decorated with a band of the same motif.

The two baby carriers displays the same style of embroiderie and one of the two shows serious traces of wear and some little embroidered motifs inside the spiral pattern. Finely all those pieces seem to be genuine. Those jackets seems quite rare on the market.

The embroidery technique is quite special: the ground can be made with appliqué that can put some diferent clour in the design field. Spirals are made of a special thread that is sewn on the ground. This thread is made of a coarse string (unknow matter) finelly wrapped by a couloured fine yarn made in a glossy matter (silk ? or rayonne ?). This technique makes a good relief effect that increase the visual impact of the design.
It seems that other tecniques of more simple appliqué exist for this type of design (I am looking for pictures)

Amitiés à tous

Louis


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:52 am
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Location: france
here are the pictures of jackets


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 Post subject: Spirals
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:17 pm 
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Location: france
The spiral motif is generaly presented as an abstract imitation of nature (ox horns, animals, plants ...). Maybe. In my opinion this intrictaed motif is before all, made in order to protect the back of the one who wear the jacket or of the baby who is wrapped into the cloth. One of the possible strategies to affraid or to get away the eyes of the evil or of the bad spirits is to make impossible the eye fixing. I find the spiral drawings particularly efficient for this aim : the design is labyrinthic and the eye cannot stop in any place.

I have an other baby carrier with appliqué spiral design, the technic is different and the style too. I'll post pictures to show it to the collectivity.

LD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:42 pm
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Location: Canterbury, UK
I have been trying to find out more information about the Jianhe jackets from some of my contacts. I emailed two friends who arrange and lead tours out of Guiyang in Guizhou and who have a particular interest in the ethnic minorities. One, Tony, is himself a Miao from Langde village.

Neither of them have, it seems, seen any of the particular ‘Jianhe jackets’ that we have been discussing. They both know of the baby carriers/covers. I quote below from their comments. Tony even contacted a famous photographer of the Miao and said that I could quote him. I am now trying to find out the name of the photographer.

Tony’s initial response:

Quote:
“I'm so not sure of the jackets from Jianhe.
I'm sure the spiral pattern is from Jianhe county.
I've been to many villages in Jianhe, I never saw that kind of jacket.
Now I haven't been to Jianhe for a long time due to the new construction on the hydro power station. I couldn't remember clearly, if I were right, I think I saw the spiral pattern in the red embroidery Miao village, but It was not on the jacket, so I think the one on the picture you showed me is the one the vendors just stitched the spiral piece on the jacket.
So that means it's not the real way the villagers make, it's made by the professional vendors, the reason is for good for looking and sale.
Sorry I'm not so sure, this is my opinion for your reference.”


Then he followed up with the photographer:

Quote:
“I made a call to a famous Miao costume photographer who is also a scholar, he has published the best Miao costume book before.
Here is his answer for the spiral pattern from Jianhe:
1. The spiral pattern from Jianhe is only used on baby carrier. The Miao in the regions of Wubao, Liuchuan use this kind of pattern.
2. I never saw the spiral pattern from Jianhe on women's jacket.

I think you write his opinion on your forum.”


Forum member Wang Jun came back with a negative but possibly with a bit of lead…just to keep our mystery alive!

Quote:
“For the jackets you mentioned, I didn't see this kind of pattern before. The pattern of spirals/circles are mostly found on the baby-carriers instead of their jackets. But mainly the jacket are a little bit of similar of Liuchuang township style of the county. But I did see another type of Miao was found in Nangong township of Taijiang county has the similar jackets you mentioned.

p.s. Nangong township is bordering Jianhe county, so I think it could be regarded as that area.
This is the information from me.”

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Pamela

http://www.tribaltextiles.info
on-line tribal textiles resource


Last edited by Pamela on Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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